Episode 510
Robert Wallace's Take on Psalms: A Prism of Song
Robert Wallace is dropping some serious wisdom bombs today as we dive into his book, *A Prism of Song: Seeing the Old Testament through the Psalms*. Right off the bat, we're tackling the wild idea that the Old Testament isn't just a dusty old collection of stories, but a vibrant tapestry that connects to the heart of our faith through the Psalms. We all know that reading the Old Testament can feel like trying to solve a Rubik's Cube blindfolded, but Robert's here to help us see it through a new lens. He’s flipping the script on how we view God in the Old Testament, challenging the notion that the God of the Old Testament is some grumpy dude compared to the cool, chill Jesus we know in the New Testament. Seriously, if you think the Psalms are just all about feel-good vibes and David dancing around, think again! We're diving deep into complaints, laments, and everything in between because, spoiler alert, real talk with God is what it’s all about. So grab your favorite snack, sit back, and let’s get ready to expand our minds!
Ever wondered why the Psalms are so crucial to understanding the Old Testament? Well, Robert Wallace is here to enlighten us, and trust me, it's not just about pretty words on a page. In this episode, we dig into his book, *A Prism of Song*, where he argues that the Psalms are a lens through which we can truly grasp the complex narratives of the Old Testament. Robert shares his insights on the cultural contexts that often cloud our understanding and how the Psalms can help us navigate through the chaos. We touch on some juicy topics—like how complaining to God is basically an art form in the Psalms (seriously, have you read Psalm 88?). This episode isn't just for the Bible scholars; it's for anyone who's ever felt lost in the weeds of Scripture. With a sprinkle of sarcasm and a whole lot of heart, we explore how these ancient prayers still resonate today, reminding us that doubt and frustration are part of the journey. So join us as we peel back the layers of Scripture and find the humanity woven throughout!
Takeaways:
- Robert Wallace's book, 'A Prism of Song,' sheds light on the Old Testament through Psalms, making complex themes more relatable.
- The podcast dives into the misconception that the Old Testament God is different from the New Testament God, emphasizing their unity in character.
- We often miss the richness of the Psalms because we only dip into a few verses, neglecting the depth of complaints and real-life struggles expressed.
- It's hilarious how we sanitize our worship, forgetting that many Psalms are filled with complaints and cries for help, which are just as valid.
Transcript
Welcome back.
Speaker A:My name is Ashley and this is the Black Sheep Christian Podcast.
Speaker A:Today we were just laughing and cutting up and it's like it's time to record.
Speaker A:I have Robert Wallace with us today.
Speaker A:Robert, thank you for joining me.
Speaker A:He is the author of a beautiful book.
Speaker A:I must say, it is a beautiful book because when you look at the colors, I mean, you can judge a.
Speaker B:Book by this cover.
Speaker A:This is nice.
Speaker A:Which is a prison of song, seeing the Old Testament through the Psalms.
Speaker A:Robert, thanks for joining me today.
Speaker B:Oh, it is a joy to be here, Ashley.
Speaker B:Thank you.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:Oh, I forgot to mention, you are a pastor, so you know your stuff.
Speaker A:So here we go.
Speaker A:Am I saying the city, right?
Speaker A:McLean.
Speaker B:McLean, Virginia.
Speaker B:Yes, it's.
Speaker B:It's inside the Beltway, just outside Washington, D.C.
Speaker B:beautiful.
Speaker A:Beautiful.
Speaker A:So with your.
Speaker A:And you are an expert of the Old Testament and this is a beautiful.
Speaker A:I shouldn't say beautiful, but it is good to meet you and also good to see speak with you about the Old Testament because let me just tell you, before I got on this podcast, I had a very interesting debate with a non believer and a student who is a believer.
Speaker A:And that Old Testament is a book that people just like to debate the most, not the one.
Speaker A:Yeah, who cares about what Paul says?
Speaker B:It's a challenge.
Speaker B:Yeah, it absolutely is.
Speaker B:And, and I think, you know, we have this, this reputation, although it was an early church heresy, that the Old Testament God and the New Testament God were two different gods.
Speaker B:The Old Testament one being mean and the father of Jesus being merciful and kind.
Speaker B:Even though the church denounced that heresy in the second century, the Marcionites snuck in the back door of the church.
Speaker B:It is still something I've noticed.
Speaker B:And it's really one of the things that motivates the book is that one of our foundational beliefs as Christians is that Jesus is God and that God is Jesus.
Speaker B:And that if that is the case, then the God we know who's fully revealed in Jesus should be visible as the God of the Old Testament.
Speaker B:But there is so much that gets in the way of that.
Speaker B:And one of the things that I try to point out is that so often if you don't see God in the Old Testament as looking the same as the God we see fully revealed in Jesus, somebody's culture is getting in the way.
Speaker B:It's their culture, it's your culture.
Speaker B:It's probably both cultures.
Speaker B:And while it's easy to remember, we can have to translate the language because very few of us can pick up Hebrew and read it.
Speaker B:I can but many can't.
Speaker B:It is a harder thing to remember.
Speaker B:We have to translate the culture as well.
Speaker B:And so one of the things that I hope this book does is to provide the tools to do that.
Speaker B:It was originally envisioned for my students.
Speaker B:I was a College professor for 20 years.
Speaker B:My PhD is in the Old Testament.
Speaker B:And so I was gonna run the PE scheme to make the students buy it every semester.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:You get 300 copies a year.
Speaker B:It's perfect.
Speaker B:But that quickly morphed when I became a full time pastor and I realized that actually the church could benefit from this as well.
Speaker B:That that is the Old Testament is still something people struggle with.
Speaker B:And so I hope, and I have study questions.
Speaker B:I hope it is something that can be used to help people rediscover 2/3 of their Bible that they say is the word of the Lord.
Speaker B:But so often they'll read a psalm here or there or a story of David, but that's it.
Speaker B:Because they just.
Speaker B:It's too hard to see otherwise.
Speaker A:Yeah, I'm going to read a forward from your book and.
Speaker A:Wait a minute.
Speaker A:I didn't put my focus on.
Speaker A:Because this is going to be.
Speaker B:I had this.
Speaker B:I had the same issue I'm doing.
Speaker B:I was trying to do it subtly and I failed.
Speaker A:There is no way I'm going to be able to do it subtly.
Speaker A:I need to put my disturb on.
Speaker A:Forgot to do it.
Speaker B:You know, I'm tracking completely with you on this, Ashley.
Speaker B:We are so in sync that I also forgot to put my focus on.
Speaker B:That is, that's, that's how new friends immediately are made.
Speaker B:Right there, ladies and gentlemen.
Speaker A:So, yes, put my focus on because we're not going to interrupt it.
Speaker A:And, and you know, jokingly, I did a Bible study.
Speaker A:I led a Bible study yesterday, which is new for me because I've done children's and youth, but it's to do an adult.
Speaker A:Tell me why we are in First Corinthians 13.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker A:There is a net that kept flying around and we're talking about love here.
Speaker A:And I immediately on the paper and I said, now I can read this Bible.
Speaker B:Now I'm ready to talk about love.
Speaker B:Now that I've committed a homicide of the stupid bug, I'm ready to talk about the love of God.
Speaker B:Absolutely.
Speaker A:So no interruptions.
Speaker B:No interruptions.
Speaker B:We're good now?
Speaker A:No, we're good.
Speaker A:So in the foreword, which I think it's a great.
Speaker A:What do you call it, a description of what your book is about is a prism reflects light, revealing one's surroundings in unique Colorful ways.
Speaker A:That is what Psalms does for the Old Testament.
Speaker A:I think that's beautiful.
Speaker B:When I wanted to write this Old Testament introduction, I mean, why do we need another Old Testament introduction?
Speaker B:I think the ratio of Old Testament intros to professors is 2 to 1 already.
Speaker B:But, but I wanted to do something that I felt was somewhat unique.
Speaker B:And the book of Psalms itself is.
Speaker B:That's was my area of specialty.
Speaker B:And it is such an interesting book in that not only does it have its own unique qualities, like every book in the Bible does, but it also has a little bit of all of the Old rest of the Old Testament.
Speaker B:Any theme that you would find in the rest of the Old Testament, you can find in Psalms.
Speaker B:Creation, kingship, exile, wisdom, settlement, Torah, anything you want.
Speaker B:And so I thought, remember when we were kids and we used to get those Gideon Bibles and it was the New Testament and Psalms, there was kind of a sense that if you had the book of Psalms, you kind of had the Old Testament.
Speaker B:And so I thought, what a great way to find entry into the rest of the Old Testament to use the Book of Psalms, which is beloved and beautiful and, and provides that, that entryway, I think, into understanding these, these more complex themes and can help us get to these issues and reveal some of that culture that gets in our way sometimes.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And you know what?
Speaker A:I wrote that down too, because that was, that, that was a thought.
Speaker A:I didn't realize that I, you know, when, when you say that, I never realized Psalms was the New Testament in Psalms, and as you said, it gives you a representation of the Old Testament.
Speaker A:I never realized that.
Speaker A:I mean, as a kid, Psalms was like.
Speaker A:I mean, the synopsis of Psalms as a kid was David dancing naked.
Speaker B:Right, right, right, right.
Speaker B:And you know, I think we've been very careful in our churches to sanitize our worship in such a way that, that you would be forgiven if you think the Psalms are only happy because over half of the Psalms are complaints.
Speaker B:Over half of the Psalms, someone is complaining to God, I'm sick.
Speaker B:My enemies are after me.
Speaker B:I mean, Psalm 88 is wonderful because the whole point of Psalm 88 is, hey, God, I wanted you to know that my life sucks and I know it's your fault.
Speaker B:That's the whole Psalm and it's a worship song.
Speaker B:And what is amazing about the Psalms is that they started as words to God, that if you believe God is at work within the canonical process in shaping our Scripture, if these words do come from God, then you believe that these words to God were the words that God wanted us to have in thinking about how to talk to God so that, yes, happy is prayer.
Speaker B:Thanksgiving is prayer, joy is prayer, anger is prayer, lament is prayer, Frustration is prayer, Vengeance is prayer.
Speaker B:Psalm 137 in Psalm 109.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:So it is.
Speaker B:It's such a beautiful picture of humanity, of real humanity in the Psalms.
Speaker B:And then to take that and also realize that within there you have stories of creation and stories of settlement and stories of the law codes and the giving of the law and the exile.
Speaker B:I thought this is a great way to take this beautiful book and let it be the lens through which we read the rest of the Old Testament.
Speaker B:That's really what motivated the text.
Speaker A:Yeah, that's beautiful.
Speaker A:Those are nuggets.
Speaker A:And, And.
Speaker A:And it really gives.
Speaker A:And, you know, it's.
Speaker A:I'm trying to find my words.
Speaker A:I'm getting to a point where I am beginning to view the Bible differently.
Speaker A:And Psalms is part of viewing the Bible differently.
Speaker A:And I say that because, as you said, it is, you know, frustration with, why did you do this to me?
Speaker B:Where are you?
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:Where are you?
Speaker A:And it.
Speaker A:The problems like, nothing's new under the sun.
Speaker A:I mean, that.
Speaker A:That is.
Speaker B:That's good.
Speaker B:You should write that down.
Speaker B:That's good.
Speaker A:Who wrote that?
Speaker B:Again, for those who don't know, that is Ecclesiastes that Ashley was quoting right there.
Speaker A:There's nothing new under the sun.
Speaker A:And with that, it feels.
Speaker A:It's not comforting, but it feels.
Speaker A:There's assurance that what psalm.
Speaker A:What is written in Psalms and what we go through, we are no different nor are favored.
Speaker A:Because they said, you know, to the.
Speaker A:I'm trying to remember the verse.
Speaker A:Golly, it left my mind to the.
Speaker B:Believers of, I'm here.
Speaker B:It's my fault.
Speaker B:My fault.
Speaker B:It's the stress of trying to come up with a Bible verse with a guy with a PhD sitting in front of you.
Speaker B:I understand.
Speaker B:It's fine.
Speaker B:It's fine.
Speaker B:No, and just to pick up on what you're saying, though, you're exactly right, that it's not just that you're not alone.
Speaker B:It's that.
Speaker B:That you are in community.
Speaker B:That.
Speaker B:That I am.
Speaker B:I am struggling with these issues.
Speaker B:And you know what?
Speaker B:You're not the first person to struggle with these issues.
Speaker B:That.
Speaker B:That this.
Speaker B:This a fine tradition of asking God, why haven't you answered?
Speaker B:Why do the wicked continue to prosper?
Speaker B:Where.
Speaker B:What.
Speaker B:Why am.
Speaker B:Why is.
Speaker B:I'm trying to do everything right, and this guy's doing everything wrong, and he's doing fine, and I'm not what's up with that?
Speaker B:And there is something so comforting in knowing that the people of God have always, you know, the opposite of faith is not doubt.
Speaker B:The opposite of faith is certainty.
Speaker B:And so learning to believe through the doubt is something that they have done and taught us how to do in the reading of the Psalms as well.
Speaker B:And so now I don't want to pretend this book is just about the Psalms because it's using the Psalms to talk about the entire Old Testament.
Speaker B:And you see in many ways that same humanity reflected everywhere, whether it's Exodus or the prophets or Job or in the wisdom literature.
Speaker B:You find it everywhere.
Speaker A:Thank you.
Speaker A:Thank you.
Speaker A:It's nice when you have a pastor to help you out.
Speaker B:Pull you along there if I have to.
Speaker A:Guide me, Lord, guide me.
Speaker B:Gently, gently.
Speaker B:Absolutely.
Speaker A:Sometimes I wonder, you know, as you say that, guide me and you say gentle.
Speaker A:Sometimes I wonder, like if God.
Speaker A:I know this is just a human thinking in godly way, but, you know, sometimes if I was God, I was like, gentle, girl, you just need to be pushed off that cliff.
Speaker B:Well, there, there are some.
Speaker B:There are some people.
Speaker B:I think God.
Speaker B:Let me say it this way.
Speaker B:I think God knows God's people and God's servants.
Speaker B:And I think God knows what, what people need.
Speaker B:Because one of my favorite sections, I was just going to look at it real quick and find it's in Jeremiah.
Speaker B:And you always have to watch Jeremiah.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:It's always tough.
Speaker B:But in, in Jeremiah, barely Jeremiah, I'm not, I'm not.
Speaker A:I'm not mature enough for Jeremiah.
Speaker B:Yeah, well, yeah, I.
Speaker B:I confess that Jeremiah.
Speaker B:Jeremiah is wonderful in the sense that Jeremiah never let God forget.
Speaker B:He never asked the job for the job.
Speaker B:He never failed to be obedient.
Speaker B:But he also never failed to let God know.
Speaker B:Just so you know, this is not the job I had to pick for myself.
Speaker B:God, I'll do it, but I don't like it.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And one of my favorite moments ever, In Jeremiah, chapter 12, Jeremiah gently approaches God and said, now, God, you're always right and you know how things go.
Speaker B:But if I could venture a question, God, why is it that you haven't answered yet?
Speaker B:Why is it that.
Speaker B:That the wicked prosper and I keep trying to be faithful and I'm not seeing any victory?
Speaker B:Why is it that this is going on?
Speaker B:And God's response to Jeremiah was, you can't be tired yet.
Speaker B:We just started.
Speaker B:God's response was literally, he says to him, how can you run with horses if you have wearied of running with men.
Speaker B:And I just think that would not have comforted me.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:I mean, that wouldn't.
Speaker B:But.
Speaker B:But Jeremiah gets up and goes the next day and delivers a message.
Speaker B:So apparently that kind of kick in the pants was what Jeremiah needed.
Speaker B:I believe I need a little more gentle nudging in that regard.
Speaker B:But I suppose the other part of that is God believes that Jeremiah can run with horses, that God has more faith in us than we do very often in this regard.
Speaker B:But yeah.
Speaker B:So I think that God knows the servant's need and sometimes will hit them with the two by four or gently guide them.
Speaker B:Either way.
Speaker A:Yeah, I completely agree.
Speaker A:I mean, the reason why I relaunched this podcast is because I had a dream and I didn't know what it meant.
Speaker B:Oh.
Speaker A:And so when I inquired about what it meant, because I put a piano through a car wash and the lady was like, you should be teaching.
Speaker A:And I said, wait a minute.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker B:I didn't see that.
Speaker B:Interesting.
Speaker A:And so.
Speaker A:And then another thing is, there's another member of the church who's being called to teach.
Speaker A:And it's like, I completely understand where.
Speaker A:Why you're wrestling it with it.
Speaker A:Because being called to teach, especially being a pastor, I told God, don't ever call me to be.
Speaker B:No, sure, yeah.
Speaker B:God.
Speaker B:And I had that understanding as well.
Speaker B:You can see.
Speaker A:I said, teaching is exhausting.
Speaker A:It is.
Speaker A:You're trying to keep yourself together, let alone you're trying to teach others.
Speaker A:I mean, it is such a responsibility.
Speaker A:And scripture says if you lead them.
Speaker B:Down the wrong path, it's your fault.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I mean, but, you know, the truth of the matter is that every one thing that every prophet's calling shared was a moment of doubt.
Speaker B:Every prophet, when they were called by God, had a moment when they go, okay, you know, God, there's a lot of folks named Moses these days, so you probably just dialed a wrong number.
Speaker B:I mean, it was.
Speaker B:Every prophet argued about, I can't possibly.
Speaker B:You know, I'm a man of unclean lips.
Speaker B:I'm too young, I don't talk so good.
Speaker B:It took Moses two chapters.
Speaker B:He talked arguing with God for two chapters.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:And so it is.
Speaker B:It is a common feature to doubt.
Speaker B:I still remember a student once came up to me and said, you know, sometimes, Dr.
Speaker B:Wallace, I think you believe in me more than I do.
Speaker B:I said, well, it puts me in good company because so does God.
Speaker B:And I think that's the case for all of us.
Speaker A:But, you know, when you wrote this book, you writing this book took you a hot minute because the first eight chapters was quick.
Speaker B:It was.
Speaker B:I was on sabbatical at the time.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:So you were in that book.
Speaker B:I was in the flow.
Speaker B:It was a flow state.
Speaker B:Absolutely.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And then you stopped.
Speaker B:I got back on campus, and I just begun to find a rhythm.
Speaker B:And the college I was teaching at was.
Speaker B:I could see storm clouds on the horizon.
Speaker B:I'd seen the movie before, and I knew how it was going to go and immediately caused me.
Speaker B:I wasn't in a place to write.
Speaker B:I was in survival mode at that point.
Speaker B:I was afraid for my job.
Speaker B:I was afraid for supporting my family.
Speaker B:Honestly, I applied to the church in McLean, McLean Baptist Church, because I was trying to distract myself.
Speaker B:I didn't want to think about what was going on at the college.
Speaker B:You know what?
Speaker B:I'm just.
Speaker B:I'm just going to throw an application out there and focus on putting my vita together, and that'll make me feel better.
Speaker B:And the church took me seriously and didn't.
Speaker B:Never anticipated that.
Speaker B:And then when we had our interview time, it was like two cats meeting each other.
Speaker B:Well, why would a professor want to be a pastor?
Speaker B:Well, yeah, well, why would you want a professor as your pastor?
Speaker B:But it turned out to be just a tremendous fit, and I was able to use those teaching gifts now in pastoring as well.
Speaker B:And then Covid and then all the rest.
Speaker B:And yeah, you're exactly right.
Speaker B:The first.
Speaker B:First nine chapters took eight months, and the tenth chapter took six years.
Speaker B:I knew the tenth chapter would be the hardest chapter.
Speaker B:And for six years, I could do a hard thing or anything else, and anything else won for six years.
Speaker B:And finally I said, no, I just need a writing retreat.
Speaker B:And I went down in a cabin and for a week and just locked myself in and got it out.
Speaker B:And actually, I'm very proud of the chapter that I said was the hardest one.
Speaker B:It's one of the better, better chapters in the book, honestly.
Speaker B:And then.
Speaker B:And then I wrote the next chapter in six days.
Speaker B:And then.
Speaker B:Then I wrote the epilogue.
Speaker B:I also did all the translations.
Speaker B:The scriptural translations are all my own.
Speaker B:I saved that for myself, for the end, because I knew that would be the most fun part for me.
Speaker B:And so that was my reward for finishing the book.
Speaker B:When you're done, you get to translate.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:And so I did.
Speaker B:It was great fun.
Speaker B:Great fun.
Speaker A:What made it difficult?
Speaker A:Was it the work?
Speaker A:Was it just the focus?
Speaker B:It was the thesis of the book.
Speaker B:Being applied to that topic was a challenge.
Speaker B:I mean, the patriarchs, the ancestors, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, they're not mentioned.
Speaker B:A lot in psalms, and when they are mentioned, there's not a lot of detail given.
Speaker B:But the tenth chapter was a chapter on the prophets.
Speaker B:And by definition, a prophet is someone who brings God's word to the people.
Speaker B:A priest brings the people to God.
Speaker B:A prophet brings God to the people.
Speaker B:That's the difference in those two jobs.
Speaker B:And I told you at the beginning of the podcast, the Psalms are words to God.
Speaker B:And so I'm trying to show how these words to God are words from God.
Speaker B:And I knew that was going to be challenging.
Speaker B:And there.
Speaker B:I knew there were some places of direct speech in the Psalms where God actually speaks, like Psalm 91, but you don't get a lot of thus says the Lord in the Psalms.
Speaker B:And so I knew that that would be hard.
Speaker B:But at the end of the day, I found some.
Speaker B:I kind of broadened the way I was thinking about it and found some connections that I had not anticipated and actually impressed my major professor, which made me feel very good that the methodology actually did hold up and it actually did work.
Speaker B:And it is actually a beautiful chapter, but it was the hardest to see.
Speaker B:It just took the most to actually sit down and take that time to do it.
Speaker A:Wow, that's amazing.
Speaker A:It's amazing that you were able to do that work.
Speaker A:Because what is interesting.
Speaker A:What.
Speaker A:What makes Bible.
Speaker A:The Bible, so difficult?
Speaker A:And this is what part of the discussion was.
Speaker A:Is.
Speaker A:Is the 66 books.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And how seriously should we take 66 books then?
Speaker A:When you think about context, like.
Speaker A:Like, I don't think Paul meant to write for the Bible.
Speaker B:No, of course.
Speaker A:Letters.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:I mean.
Speaker A:I mean, one of the letters was like, when I get there, we'll talk about other matters.
Speaker B:Right, Right.
Speaker B:The stuff you were talking about.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A: at are these other matters in: Speaker A:I'm, like, sitting.
Speaker B:We're listening to one side of a phone conversation.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And sometimes you know exactly what's going on when you're listening to one side of a cell phone conversation, like, somebody done cheated on somebody.
Speaker B:And sometimes you have no idea what these people are talking about.
Speaker B:And no, you're exactly right.
Speaker B:We have 66 books that were all written for different occasions by different people in different places.
Speaker B:And so, for me, I believe knowing about that occasion helps us here.
Speaker B:So if I know what Corinth was like, I can better understand what Paul is saying to the Corinthians, and in doing that, better hear what God is saying to me.
Speaker B:But the truth of the matter is that's a step that is a step that is not Taken by two groups of people, fundamentalists and atheists.
Speaker B:Interestingly enough, atheists and fundamentalists read the Bible exactly the same way.
Speaker B:They pick it up, they look at it, they believe it's self interpreting and you don't need.
Speaker B:It's written for, that's been written for all time apparently.
Speaker B:And an atheist will reject it and a fundamentalist will try to encode it, but the reality is they don't take the time to translate that culture.
Speaker B:And so what I'm hoping that this book does is show you the occasion to.
Speaker B:For the creation story, show you the occasion for the flood story, show you the occasion for the patriarchs and help you understand.
Speaker B:Nobody sat down and said, oh, I've got this great idea for a creation narrative.
Speaker B:Let me just start in the beginning.
Speaker B:No, there were creation beliefs around the ancient near east and the biblical authors were saying, you know, people are saying all this stuff that's not, that doesn't show who God really is.
Speaker B:And so they're writing in response to the world around them the way, you know, God always meets people where they are.
Speaker B:And, and that is, that's a wonderful miracle.
Speaker B:Pentecost is terrific.
Speaker B:But at the same time that also means that God met them where they were and we need to know where they were to better hear what was going on with them.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Well said.
Speaker B:Thank you.
Speaker A:I wish I had you in here for the debate.
Speaker A:Well said.
Speaker B:I told you, I'm sorry, I just missed it.
Speaker B:Get him back, get him back.
Speaker B:We'll take this.
Speaker A:Take it up.
Speaker A:He.
Speaker B:I've called it, I've called in backup, I've got my PhD.
Speaker A:But you know, it's interesting because that's, that, that is another thing.
Speaker A:I just, I just had another thought.
Speaker A:That is when you teach the Bible, I don't know if this is.
Speaker A:As a pastor and I may be talk God maybe be like, Ashley, you need to be going through this.
Speaker A:But one of the fears that I have is, is the Bible is a magical book.
Speaker A:Now an example of that is the, the creation of the earth.
Speaker A:Also Moses and plagues.
Speaker A:These are magical things that God called and said with his words for things happen.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker A:And so one of the fears is that when studying the word, sometimes one of my biggest fears is I lose the magic and that God created.
Speaker A:And I think that's what the beautiful thing about it is.
Speaker A:Fact that he created the earth in seven days in our translation, right?
Speaker A:In our trance when nobody was here to verify the fact that he said, let there be light.
Speaker A:That's beautiful, right?
Speaker B:It is it is.
Speaker B:There are a couple of things about that that are fascinating to me.
Speaker B:Among them, there is a beautiful poetic structure to Genesis 1, where the first three days correspond so well to the last three days, because you have light created on day one and the sun, moon, and stars on day four.
Speaker B:You have the air, the heavens defined and the waters defined on day two.
Speaker B:You get the birds and the fish on day five.
Speaker B:Then you get the land on day three, and you get the land animals on day six.
Speaker B:So there's this beautiful structure across those days.
Speaker B:And the first three days are giving shape to the world, and the last three days are filling it, right, because it's shapeless and empty.
Speaker B:It's tohu va bohu in Hebrew.
Speaker B:And so the first three days give shape, the last three days fill up.
Speaker B:And so there's this beautiful Hebrew.
Speaker B:Poetry is defined by structure and this beautiful structure that you have.
Speaker B:And yet Genesis 1 is narrative.
Speaker B:It's prose.
Speaker B:Every other culture in the ancient near east, when they wrote their creation epics, it was in poetry.
Speaker B:And Hebrew uses poetry for everything.
Speaker B:They use poetry.
Speaker B:All of the prophets preach in poetry.
Speaker B:Talk about pressure for Sunday morning, having to have your sermon, end up sounding like Dr.
Speaker B:Seuss, I think, on Sunday mornings, if that happened.
Speaker B:But the prophets all preach in poetry.
Speaker B:All the wisdom books, proverbs, Job, all poetry.
Speaker B:All of your psalms poetry, Song of songs poetry, lamentations, poetry, poetry all over the Old Testament.
Speaker B:And the one place where everyone else uses poetry, they come along and say, no, this is prose.
Speaker B:And that's one of those things.
Speaker B:I don't know what that means.
Speaker B:I think it means something, but I don't know what that means, other than perhaps they are trying to say this is something different than what the rest of the world is talking about.
Speaker B:And I think you were touching on this to some degree.
Speaker B:One of the things I love about this, that the mistake people make about Genesis 1 and 2, the mistake people make about a lot of the Bible, is that they think Genesis 1 and 2 are about creation, when Genesis 1 and 2 are about God, and Genesis 1 and 2 are using creation to tell us about God, they're using the Flood to tell us about God, they're using the tower to tell us about God, they're using the patriarchs to tell us about God.
Speaker B:The exile, Exodus, all the surprise, stop the presses.
Speaker B:The Bible's about God.
Speaker B:This is the message.
Speaker B:And it is using all of these encounters to tell us who God is.
Speaker B:So in Genesis 1, you have this incredibly transcendent God who can speak it and it happens.
Speaker B:It's a very royal picture of God.
Speaker B:You know, kings and queens, they don't get the hoe when they want a rose bush by the palace.
Speaker B:They say, we want a rose bush by the palace.
Speaker B:You know what they get?
Speaker B:A rose bush by the palace.
Speaker B:God says, let there be light.
Speaker B:And there was light.
Speaker B:Huge, transcendent.
Speaker B:Above all, overall, can speak the universe into existence.
Speaker B:Genesis 2, what do we see?
Speaker B:A God who is shaping and forming and breathing and planting.
Speaker B:A God who is close at hand, incredibly imminent.
Speaker B:So we have a transcendent God in Genesis 1 and imminent God in Genesis 2.
Speaker B:Why?
Speaker B:Because God's both.
Speaker B:God is both above all and overall and powerful enough to speak creation into existence and close enough at hand to care that the man is lonely and needs a companion.
Speaker B:So that you can't capture all of what God is in one creation story.
Speaker B:You need to.
Speaker B:Now, do they conflict?
Speaker B:They don't exactly say the same thing.
Speaker B:But it's not like we're the people that noticed that.
Speaker B:I mean, ancient Israel knew how that worked.
Speaker B:I've always explained this with music videos.
Speaker B:You remember, I don't know if you're old enough, Ashley, to remember when MTV had music videos back in the day, back when I was young, the MTV had music videos, okay?
Speaker B:And you would watch these videos and you would see the band performing on stage and.
Speaker B:And then the band would be performing on a cliff in a completely different outfit.
Speaker B:And then they'd be inside a church in a wedding dress.
Speaker B:Then they'd be back in a band with red leather.
Speaker B:And at no time when we were watching these music videos did any of us ever say, well, they didn't have time to change clothes.
Speaker B:That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen in my life.
Speaker B:There was where they spectus.
Speaker B:They could transport and change their clothes.
Speaker B:That doesn't fit any knowledge or anything I've seen.
Speaker B:No, we know how music videos work.
Speaker B:And as long as these video clip it clips are in service of the song, we're totally cool with it.
Speaker B:Well, you know what?
Speaker B:Genesis 1 and 2 don't say exactly the same thing.
Speaker B:And that's not a bug, that's a feature.
Speaker B:They knew how stories worked.
Speaker B:Ancient Israel was able to read that.
Speaker B:And as long as it is in service of the greater story, who is God in relationship to humanity?
Speaker B:It didn't matter that we don't know where Cain's wife came from.
Speaker B:It doesn't matter that Genesis 1 says God is overall and Genesis 2 says God's close at hand.
Speaker B:Those are all in service of telling us who this God is.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker A:I'm now looking at Genesis 1 and 2 differently now.
Speaker B:Well, then I've done my job today.
Speaker A:That's a point of view that I never thought of.
Speaker A:That.
Speaker A:That is a point of view that I never thought of.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker A:I should.
Speaker A:Yeah, you should have been on the debate.
Speaker A:And I mean, that explains.
Speaker A:That explains a lot because one of the things that they use is.
Speaker A:Is Genesis 1 and 2.
Speaker A:You know, of course.
Speaker A:You know, creation or evolution.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:But.
Speaker A:But to go back to Psalms, that really.
Speaker A:That really says about.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker A:That really says about how Psalm.
Speaker A:I don't know why I keep putting an S.
Speaker A:And there's no s.
Speaker A:If.
Speaker B:There'S one, there's Psalm.
Speaker B:If there's more than one, there's Psalms.
Speaker B:So it's Psalms 1 and 2.
Speaker B:It's Psalm 23.
Speaker B:Just.
Speaker B:Thank you for.
Speaker B:Thank you for being careful enough to do that.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Because that.
Speaker B:That's one that drives me.
Speaker B:I mean, that was.
Speaker B:I spent so much of my life in the book of Psalms.
Speaker B:And it is the book of Psalms.
Speaker B:But.
Speaker B:But.
Speaker B:But it's Psalm 8.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And even in my own church, right.
Speaker B:Some deacon will get up and read from Psalms 23.
Speaker B:And it just drives.
Speaker B:I just.
Speaker B:I want a heckle.
Speaker B:You can't killing me.
Speaker B:You're just.
Speaker B:You're fine.
Speaker B:No, you caught it.
Speaker B:You're great.
Speaker B:Only thing worse than that is Revelations.
Speaker B:That's the only thing.
Speaker B:It's like, oh, man.
Speaker B:Really?
Speaker B:Can we just.
Speaker A:I don't know why we keep putting an S at the end of it.
Speaker A:Even.
Speaker A:Even I, like, I've caught myself that I'm like, I don't know why I keep putting an S.
Speaker A:Yeah, there is no S.
Speaker A:Like, I'm going to Bible gateway.
Speaker B:Psalms, Psalm 23.
Speaker B:Psalms, the book of Psalms.
Speaker B:But it is Psalm 23.
Speaker B:That's.
Speaker A:This is the.
Speaker B:This is the cut scene for the podcast right here.
Speaker B:This is what, really?
Speaker B:This is the promo?
Speaker B:Absolutely.
Speaker A:I quite honestly, I don't cut anything.
Speaker B:I'm just saying.
Speaker B:This is what.
Speaker B:You're going to promo that.
Speaker B:My God.
Speaker B:This guy's a PhD and he's teaching her how to say Psalms.
Speaker B:What the.
Speaker B:What is this?
Speaker A:But I know it's one of those pet peeves.
Speaker A:Loud.
Speaker A:Now this is going off topic because I know pet peeve that you pastors don't like is fruit of the spirits.
Speaker B:Fruit of Fruits of the spirits.
Speaker A:Fruits of the spirit.
Speaker B:That's right.
Speaker B:You have to get the S in the right place.
Speaker B:It's like Mothers in law.
Speaker A:Yes, yes.
Speaker B:Attorneys general.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:There's no fruits.
Speaker A:It's like, think of it as an orange.
Speaker A:And you take the orange and there's parts of the orange.
Speaker B:Yes, yes, yes.
Speaker A:The fruit of the spirit.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:When he explained that, I said, let.
Speaker B:Me give you another bonus one.
Speaker B:This is.
Speaker B:This is one that, that translations hide, but I think is absolutely beautiful.
Speaker B:Romans, chapter 12, verse 1.
Speaker B:I urge you, therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies plural as a living sacrifice, singular.
Speaker B:He tells the church in Rome that they, as a church, that they present their bodies as a living sacrifice, that they are together in this calling to lay themselves down.
Speaker B:And there are some translations that translate sacrifices.
Speaker B:And even though that's not in the Greek, they make it a plural, as though we individually are laying ourselves down.
Speaker B:No, that Paul is saying in the book of Romans, you as a congregation, you lay your.
Speaker B:Your bodies down as a living sacrifice.
Speaker B:Together.
Speaker B:You are in this together, which I just think is beautiful.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And we.
Speaker B:And that's another one I want to fix.
Speaker B:So there.
Speaker B:I got a lot of things I want to.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:No, no, no.
Speaker A:Here's another question.
Speaker A:What translation is the best translation?
Speaker B:You know, that is a tough thing to answer.
Speaker B:I can tell you what I look for in a good translation.
Speaker B:A good translation has a diverse translation committee that you have individuals coming from a variety of faith backgrounds, Catholic Orthodox, Reform Protestants, Evangelical Protestants, because you can get theologically inbred in your vision sometimes and you can have your.
Speaker B:You can read your theology.
Speaker B:You need someone, a larger group, a committee to do that.
Speaker B:The nrsv, the New Revised Standard does a nice job with a very diverse translation committee.
Speaker B:They even have an Old Testament translator who was Jewish to help provide some voices there as well.
Speaker B:And so I really like a diverse translation committee.
Speaker B:Now, that said, you can run into challenges with a committee translation because.
Speaker B:Although almost all of our translations are committee translations.
Speaker B:And that's wonderful because you've got, you know, a lot.
Speaker B:That's a big book.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And you need a lot of people.
Speaker B:You gotta divide and conquer.
Speaker B:But it's a translation that a committee could agree on at the end of the day.
Speaker B:And one of my colleagues who worked as a Bible translator for a while said, the problem is anytime you get a committee to agree on a color, it's always beige, because that's the only color everybody can agree.
Speaker B:Agree on.
Speaker B:Is that what we're going to paint the walls?
Speaker B:You know?
Speaker B:Yeah, we're going to green.
Speaker B:No, we're not in green.
Speaker B:That's Beige, I guess beige will work.
Speaker B:So you end up with a beige translation.
Speaker B:Nothing wrong with the beige translation.
Speaker B:Beige goes with anything, but it's beige.
Speaker B:If you go to something like the message, a translation done from a single individual.
Speaker B:Eugene Peterson himself translated the entire Bible, and he tried to do it in a dynamic, equivalence way.
Speaker B:In other words, he tried to incorporate the cultural translation into the words itself, because the NRSV assumes we'll translate the words.
Speaker B:You translate the culture.
Speaker B:Eugene Peterson decided to incorporate the cultural change in that.
Speaker B:So, for example, in Psalm 100, enter his gates with thanksgiving and his courts with praise.
Speaker B:In the NRSV becomes enter with the password.
Speaker B:Thank you.
Speaker B:Because Peterson is trying to capture.
Speaker B:Well, in the ancient world, cities had gates.
Speaker B:There was siege warfare.
Speaker B:You only let people in your city through the gates that you trusted.
Speaker B:So what are things that we do to let people in to protect ourselves?
Speaker B:And we only give the key to the people we trust.
Speaker B:Passwords, right?
Speaker B:I always told my students I didn't believe in password sharing before marriage.
Speaker B:It's just too.
Speaker B:It's too intimate.
Speaker B:It's too important.
Speaker B:And so that is something he tried to incorporate.
Speaker B:But he translated whole scriptures by himself.
Speaker B:And while I don't always agree with the choices he made in some of those issues, I cannot deny that, and I do love the message as a translation.
Speaker B:I cannot deny it is more colorful than beige.
Speaker B:There is.
Speaker B:There is a vibrancy that comes through when you see a single individual's vision for how this needs to be read.
Speaker B:And so I have tremendous respect, and I would often use the message when I was preaching.
Speaker B:It was funny, though.
Speaker B:I asked students one time, you know, I had the NRSV up, you know, enter his gates with Thanksgiving.
Speaker B:And I had the message up, enter with the password.
Speaker B:Thank you.
Speaker B:I said, okay, which translation do you guys prefer?
Speaker B:And now, this was a.
Speaker B:It was a Christian college, but probably half of the students were people of faith, and the other half were not taking the class because they had to.
Speaker B:And they all decided they liked the NRSV better.
Speaker B:And I said, you bunch of hypocrites.
Speaker B:You're out here telling me that you want God to relate and you're going to be transforming, and you want worship music that sounds like rock and roll.
Speaker B: anslation that comes from the: Speaker B:You don't want it to sound like what just now?
Speaker B:It sounds churchy.
Speaker B:Well, of course it does, but that's not the point of the Bible.
Speaker B:The point of Pentecost says the Bible Speaks your language.
Speaker B:You know, it was in Koine Greek, the common Greek.
Speaker B:It wasn't in the High Greek, the Attic Greek of Homer.
Speaker B:It was in the everyday Greek.
Speaker B:But it's just a reality that people like it to sound churchy.
Speaker B:But I think if you are willing to do the hard work of working through the culture to find a good reading, then NRSV might be something that you could work through.
Speaker B:If you are wanting that included because you have no experience with that kind of thing.
Speaker B:The message can be a good way to get into it, a good middle ground, I might say.
Speaker B:The common English Bible, it was actually translated with the idea that it would be read aloud.
Speaker B:And so it's written with a flow to it that makes it easier to hear in that way.
Speaker B:So that's one that we use in our worship settings right now.
Speaker B:We use the NRSV for a long time.
Speaker B:But if I'm doing a study, even now, if I'm doing a study, I will probably use nrsv because I still read English faster than I read Hebrew.
Speaker B:And, and those, those kinds of translations are very consistent in the way they translate.
Speaker B:So if I see the word loving kindness or steadfast love, I go, oh, I didn't know they were using hessid there.
Speaker B:And then I can go get my Hebrew Bible and, and, and cross reference it.
Speaker B:But if I'm doing devotion or, I mean the message or contemporary English version or the common English Bible are all good, good places to go.
Speaker B:Get as many as you can.
Speaker B:I mean, ideally learn Hebrew and Greek, but if you can't learn Hebrew and Greek and some Aramaic, then, then get as many possible translations because no one translation is going to capture all of the elegance.
Speaker B:And yet Pentecost tells me that all of these things are Bibles.
Speaker B:Not the Bible in translation, but the Bible.
Speaker B:So whether it's in Spanish or German or 17 different forms of English, it's still considered on the front the Holy Bible, not the Bible in translation.
Speaker B:So sometimes I agree with that and sometimes I tell God Pentecost wasn't such a, a great idea and it'd be better if everybody learned Hebrew and Greek.
Speaker B:But I'm gonna have to defer to God's wisdom on that one, I think at the end of the day.
Speaker A:Thank you for that.
Speaker A:It's funny because before our debate happened, I was talking to the student and we were just talking about, you know, you know, TVs, you know, Christianity, TVs that we're watching, movies that are out and all that fun stuff.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:But she said that she was going to go to the store and get a new Bible.
Speaker A:Bible.
Speaker A:And it's interesting because when I growing up, it was King James.
Speaker B:Right, right.
Speaker A:And then it became New King James.
Speaker B:Right, right.
Speaker A:It was amplified right then.
Speaker A:Now it's niv.
Speaker A:And so it's interesting because when it comes to translations, I do agree, the more the merrier, because I am a sucker for a Bible.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:It's almost like stationary.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:It's just the paper.
Speaker A:The.
Speaker A:It's just a whole feel.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:But when it comes to translations, certain ones speak to you and how that they're written.
Speaker A:You know, you are studying, they're g.
Speaker A:When you.
Speaker A:When you do study, you will find that a translation will speak to you better in the other translation.
Speaker A:And when you do another study, the other one is going to speak.
Speaker B:That's right.
Speaker B:It depends on where.
Speaker B:Where you are at a time.
Speaker B:And, you know, you were kind of giving a history there for 400 years.
Speaker B:The king James was sort of the Pew Bible.
Speaker B:It was the standard for Protestants.
Speaker B: In: Speaker B:So they were going to have to try and write.
Speaker B:They had to translate their Bible in such a way that it would appeal to the masses.
Speaker B:And so what happened was.
Speaker B:And, you know, I just gave you an example of the message Bible, which is about translating culture and being as easy to understand as possible, and the NRSV being as structured and many ways very formal in its.
Speaker B:So that the words correspond to the original.
Speaker B:The niv, when they translated their Bible, if it was a verse that you never, never memorized as a child, they tended to be a little more paraphrasey, a little more easy to read, and so forth.
Speaker B:If it was a verse that you might have memorized or that someone.
Speaker B:Because you're gonna go buy a new Bible, it's a new translation you've never heard of.
Speaker B:How do you decide you're going to do that?
Speaker B:Nobody picks up the Bible and looks at the translation philosophy and who made up the translation committee?
Speaker B:No, you turn to John 3:16, you turn to Psalm 23.
Speaker B:Three, you turn to Romans 3:23, Galatians 2:20, Psalm 1.
Speaker B:You turn to these verses that you know and memorized in King James or whatever it was, and then you see how close it is.
Speaker B:If it was any of those verses, the end.
Speaker B:The NIV tried to be closer.
Speaker B:It reads more King Jamesy than it does.
Speaker B:It reads a little more.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And the best example I can give you That's a pretty bold claim, Robert.
Speaker B:Can you back that up?
Speaker B:Yes, I can.
Speaker B:In Psalm 1, the opening verse is blessed in the NIV.
Speaker B:Blessed is the man who does not stand in the way of sinners.
Speaker B:Now, if I told you, if you and I were in the same room together, Ashley, there's one room in this door, in this office I'm in.
Speaker B:And I said I was going to stand in your way.
Speaker B:What does that mean?
Speaker B:It means I'm going to obstruct you.
Speaker B:I'm going to keep you from getting out.
Speaker B:So you could read Psalm 1, verse 1, and think that blessed is the man who doesn't stand in the way of sinners.
Speaker B:Just let him go.
Speaker B:Just let him go.
Speaker B:That's what.
Speaker B:No, that's not what it means.
Speaker B:It means blessed is the man who does not stand in the.
Speaker B:In the road, in the avenue, in the boulevard, in the way that sinners are walking in.
Speaker B:Well, why would you translate that way?
Speaker B:Because that's the way the King James translates it.
Speaker B:The King James translates it.
Speaker B:Blessed is the man who doesn't stand in the way of sinners.
Speaker B:And so they knew people were going to get their Bibles off the shelf and.
Speaker B:And they were going to look at Psalm 1, and as you know, it doesn't sound too far from King James.
Speaker B:We can put this in the pew and people won't get mad at us.
Speaker B:So it was an intentional choice to sell Bibles?
Speaker B:Frankly, I don't want to.
Speaker B:I'm not implying money is a motivating factor for people, but every now and then, yeah, it can be a marketing choice.
Speaker A:I just learned something.
Speaker A:I never noticed that.
Speaker A:Yeah, I never noticed that.
Speaker B:If you're reading about, you know, the Rob Shockey who's besieging Hezekiah in Second Kings, nobody cares how that reads.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:You know, they'll translate that as readable as possible.
Speaker B:But Genesis 1, John 3, 16.
Speaker B:No, no, no.
Speaker B:You gotta be.
Speaker B:You gotta be at least.
Speaker B:You gotta be able to at least see the King James from where you are, or they're not buying your Bible.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker A:Thank you for that.
Speaker A:I learned something new because, you know, with the history of King James, King James in itself is.
Speaker A:Is a controversy in itself.
Speaker A:He did not write for.
Speaker B:Correct.
Speaker A:It was not supposed to be 54.
Speaker B:Different scholars who did it.
Speaker B:Yeah, he thought the Geneva Bible was too Calvinist.
Speaker B:I mean, who would have thought the Geneva Bible be too Calvinist?
Speaker B:John Calvin lived in Geneva.
Speaker B:Who saw that coming?
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:But the Geneva Bible was too Calvinist.
Speaker B:And so he wanted a translation done, and so he commissioned.
Speaker B: together, and let me say, in: Speaker B:It relied heavily upon the work of William Tyndale, an Englishman that had translated about 80 years before and was martyred for it.
Speaker B:He was put to death because they didn't believe that they should have a Bible in the common language.
Speaker B:Because if anybody could read the Bible, people get weird ideas if that happens.
Speaker B:And so it was a matter of control.
Speaker B:Yes, but it was also a matter, of course, quality control.
Speaker B:I get it.
Speaker B: tually betrayed and killed in: Speaker B:But his new Testament and his Torah, he translated the New Testament and Genesis to Deuteronomy and the Book of Jonah were used as sort of the basis from which the King James moved forward.
Speaker B:And you can see a lot of his work in that, which is just absolutely remarkable and wonderful.
Speaker B:It's a wonderful and beautiful.
Speaker B:And, you know, a good translator has the soul of a poet.
Speaker B:A good translator can capture both rendering the words and the art, because both of those things happen in language.
Speaker B:And he is able to render.
Speaker B:But it's able to render both of those things so well, which is why it endured for 400 years.
Speaker B: don't mean what they meant in: Speaker B:And I mean one of the classic examples, I believe it's 1 Peter 3, where wives win your husbands by your conversation so that without words they'll come to know the Lord.
Speaker B:That's the King James rendering.
Speaker B:So use your conversation without words to have your husbands believe in God in the King James.
Speaker B: Well, in: Speaker B:It was the way you carried yourself.
Speaker B:And so the point was, live your life in such a way that your husband will see you are a person of faith and will see that come to God with.
Speaker B:And you won't have to say anything to him.
Speaker B:And so I always told my students, if we got to the point where we're having to translate the translation, it's probably time for a new translation.
Speaker B:And so.
Speaker B:So the King James, you know, you can't.
Speaker B:I mean, even so, I.
Speaker B:Every time Psalm 23 comes up in the lectionary, we're using the new King James because all of my parishioners, many of whom are over 50, we all memorize Psalm 23 in King James.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And so you can't.
Speaker B:Even though I.
Speaker B:I want.
Speaker B:Well, we could update the language.
Speaker B:I also concede it just doesn't sound right.
Speaker B:If it doesn't sound King James, you know, so, so even, even I will concede that sometimes the art wins over there.
Speaker B:I'll just explain the content.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:But even though like there, there is a darkness that of the King James put together, but what we can't deny is what the King James did correct.
Speaker A:For Jesus, for the Kingdom.
Speaker A:I don't want to say Christianity, but Christianity is a word that was hardly used.
Speaker A:God wants us to be disciples.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:I mean that's a word that he uses more than anything.
Speaker B:Here's a funny, funny fun fact for you with the King James.
Speaker B:When it was first translated, it was published with apocryphal, in other words, the first and second Maccabees, book of Ecclesiasticus, all those extra books that are in the Catholic Bible, if you will, the Deuterocanonicals, those were all part of the King James because at the time the Church of England was in sort of an identity crisis.
Speaker B:Are we going to be more Protestant?
Speaker B:Are we going to be more Catholic?
Speaker B:And just in case we're translating the Apocrypha with it.
Speaker B:And so I always loved these because so many of these King James only churches are also rabidly anti Catholic.
Speaker B: hen it was first published in: Speaker B:That's one of those fun facts.
Speaker B:If somebody's getting snippy with me, I will bring that point.
Speaker B:It needs, it needs redeeming.
Speaker B:I acknowledge that.
Speaker B:But, but, but I do.
Speaker B:I do it.
Speaker B:That's true.
Speaker A:But that's what.
Speaker A:Oh my, I'm losing words.
Speaker A:But yeah, the, the beauty, beauty of King James, the darkness and the beauty is what brings us here today.
Speaker A:And then with your book with Psalms, that's what is to help us to really understand not only not only the Old Testament but also is because where it sits, I'm trying to find my Bible.
Speaker B:Look at you grabbing one handy.
Speaker B:Look at that.
Speaker A:You're just showing up dandy.
Speaker A:Yeah, you just showing off my handy dandy.
Speaker A:If it's, it's small enough.
Speaker A:This was, this is, this was my dad's was in the military, which is why it's so small because all of.
Speaker B:This, this top shelf here that you see, all of these are, are Bibles, but they are all Bibles with some sort of sentimental value to it.
Speaker B:They.
Speaker B:Okay, my grandfather's, my grandmother's the one.
Speaker B:My grandmother got me my mother, mother's Bible.
Speaker B:All my using Bibles are At the church where I use those there.
Speaker B:But, you know, the, the Gideon Bible that I got when I was in the fifth grade is here.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:So, yeah, they're all, all those are sentimental as well.
Speaker A:So it's.
Speaker B:I got plenty.
Speaker A:And, and there's no reason.
Speaker A:That's why I was telling the student there's no reason for me to get another Bible.
Speaker A:But it feels right.
Speaker B:That's right.
Speaker B:That's right.
Speaker A:But anyways, I was trying to remind myself where Psalm sits.
Speaker A:Where Psalm sits.
Speaker B:The Psalms.
Speaker B:The Psalm sits right in the middle.
Speaker A:In.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And so the position of it between the Old Testament and the New Testament is very profound.
Speaker A:So for those who were translating, trying to put.
Speaker A:Figure out what order to put this in, because I'm sure that was debate and it was.
Speaker B:Well, and it's different for different folks.
Speaker B:Catholics have a slightly different order.
Speaker B:Jews have a slightly different order.
Speaker B:Protestants have a slightly different order.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:So that only works with a Protestant English Bible, just so you know.
Speaker B:But it's nice.
Speaker B:It works.
Speaker B:It's a good parable.
Speaker B:But.
Speaker B:But it only.
Speaker B:You got a limited audience for this parable is all I'm suggesting.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:So it's a beautiful point.
Speaker B:It's very spiritual.
Speaker B:It's a lovely parable.
Speaker B:Just make sure you know who you're talking to when you're talking about it.
Speaker A:That's all.
Speaker B:Word of warning.
Speaker A:Your title fits and the prism, because where, where this book sits fits your title because of how it.
Speaker A:Between these, I wouldn't say two worlds, but I mean, after Jesus, I mean, there was definitely a new world order.
Speaker B:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker B:The kingdom had come.
Speaker B:That was the point.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:So where.
Speaker A:So what your book talks about as a prism and where this book sits.
Speaker B:Yeah, very fitting that that was.
Speaker B:I mean, Bill Bellinger, who wrote the foreword, who was my major professor, said that that for him it was the old sword drill metaphor because, you know, if you ever had sword drills growing up in church, that was.
Speaker B:Who could turn to Scripture the quickest.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:You'd have your Bible out.
Speaker B:And it was, you know, go to Zechariah.
Speaker B:And part of, I won't say cheats, but mnemonic devices that you had to learn was where was it in relation to Psalms?
Speaker B:Because Psalms was going to be in the middle and so.
Speaker B:And so.
Speaker B:Oh, well, it's.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:Zechariah is to the right of Psalms.
Speaker B:Oh, Kings is to the left of Psalms.
Speaker B:And so that Psalms was sort of the starting point from everyone trying to find anything else in the Old Testament.
Speaker B:And that's really what made him start thinking about Psalms as the center of Old Testament theology and made me then think about Psalms as the center of Old Testament introduction and how we might use it to get gateway to bring me back to the topic of my book.
Speaker B:If you see, I so skillfully did.
Speaker A:I tried, I tried, I tried, I tried.
Speaker A:I mean, I mean, the conversation that we, We've had, I am very blessed and grateful for it.
Speaker B:I.
Speaker A:You have given me things that I will take with me and digest beyond this, Doing this, doing this podcast again has allowed me to be able to be the disciple that God calls us to be.
Speaker A:Irregardless.
Speaker A:And so because in the end, when as I am growing and you can correct me if I'm wrong, I would.
Speaker B:Never dream to.
Speaker A:Because you are to guide me.
Speaker A:Because if not, then I'm gonna blame you if, if, if I am on that in front of the Lord Jesus, I may call for a manager and dispute and say, you know what the pastor told me.
Speaker B:That's right, that's right, that's right.
Speaker A:Because I'm just.
Speaker B:It won't be, it won't be your fault.
Speaker B:It'll be my fault.
Speaker B:Yes, absolutely.
Speaker A:That was always my joke.
Speaker A:Like, just to myself, like, if God says, ashley, I have some news for you, I'll be like, where's my manager?
Speaker A:I have things that I need to talk to about because I know I'm supposed to go beyond that gate.
Speaker B:Let me, let me, let me offer this, this word of comfort.
Speaker B:And this is a word of comfort that has come through my wife.
Speaker B:My wife is also an ordained minister.
Speaker B:We are the Reverend's doctor's Wallace, in case you were curious.
Speaker B:She works as chaplain at the VA Hospital in Washington, D.C.
Speaker B:and chaplains have a remarkable worldview.
Speaker B:And her training, the clinical pastoral education training, to me is still one of those trainings I just can't believe because they basically, when you go in your first day, you get a list of patients and you go visit the patients and then you copy your visit as much as possible.
Speaker B:They said, I said, they said, I said, said.
Speaker B:And then you go back to your man, to your supervisor, and you read out your.
Speaker B:You perform your verbatim.
Speaker B:They said this, and I said this.
Speaker B:And then your manager, your supervisor tells you all of the things you did wrong.
Speaker B:And I said this.
Speaker B:This is terrible.
Speaker B:I mean, I still love one of my colleagues who was going to be a chaplain.
Speaker B:He said, we got a tour of the hospital and they told us where we were parking and they showed us the Cafeteria.
Speaker B:And then they handed out these patients.
Speaker B:And I said, whoa, wait a minute.
Speaker B:Said, I'm.
Speaker B:If they want to talk about where to park and where the cafeteria is, I'm fine, but I need.
Speaker B:I need more.
Speaker B:I'm not good at this.
Speaker B:And the supervisor said, look, she's having surgery in the morning.
Speaker B:She doesn't have time for you to get good at this.
Speaker B:And so I asked Cindy, how do you deal with that when you know you're going to say the wrong thing, when you know you're going to, you know, do the wrong thing?
Speaker B:And she said, as chaplains, we always believe that there is grace.
Speaker B:We always believe that there is grace.
Speaker B:That you go in there and you do the best you can as well as you can, and you're not going to always get it right.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:But you try not to make the same mistake twice, and you know and trust that God is present and there is grace.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:So try not to put too much pressure on yourself to always get it right and.
Speaker B:And give God the room to remember that there is grace in our teaching, there is grace in our counseling.
Speaker B:There's grace.
Speaker B:And as we walk each day.
Speaker A:Yeah, that's beautiful.
Speaker A:Thank you.
Speaker A:I think that should be a good final word.
Speaker B:Fair enough.
Speaker B:To save it.
Speaker B:I could have talked more.
Speaker A:As a pastor is a good fighter.
Speaker A:Word.
Speaker A:Robert, I am so grateful that you join me today.
Speaker A:Your book, which is called A Prism of Song, Seeing the Old Testament through the Psalms, is a beautiful teaching book for those who are not only maybe as a way to go back into Scripture.
Speaker A:Scripture, but also as a way to get deeper in the relationship with God.
Speaker B:Absolutely.
Speaker A:Because in the end, that's really what this is all about is.
Speaker A:Is learning who he is out of everything.
Speaker A:I mean, there's a lot of secondary matters.
Speaker A:There's a lot of how we're trying to live our lives.
Speaker A:There's so many different ways.
Speaker A:But I think, and I'm speaking for myself, that I am beginning to learn is that it really isn't about what I'm doing.
Speaker A:Saying, are those important?
Speaker A:Not as much as learning who he is, because that is really why he created us to begin with.
Speaker A:He.
Speaker A:He just looked around and said, it's a little boring here.
Speaker B:I've often said the story of scripture is that God wants to.
Speaker B:To hang out with interesting people.
Speaker B:And this is the place where we become interesting.
Speaker B:This is the place where we learn where it is to love one another, to care for one another, to lift up one another, to take care of the people who are.
Speaker B:Who need help to have deep and compassionate empathy for one another.
Speaker B:This is where we learn what it is to be the God of grace.
Speaker B:God gave us that skills.
Speaker B:And so, so, yeah, we need to learn how to be more interesting and how to be more, more loving as we go.
Speaker B:So this is, I hope the book is a great opportunity to help people rediscover that.
Speaker B:It's not just Jesus who says that.
Speaker B:It's the God that is fully revealed in Jesus all throughout scripture that says that.
Speaker B:And I hope that the text actually gives some skills in that regard.
Speaker A:Beautiful.
Speaker A:Thank you for joining.
Speaker B:Thank you so much for having me, Ashley.
Speaker B:It's been a lot of fun.
