Love Without Asterisks: Jeff Click's Path to Understanding
Jeff Click, the host of the Love Without Asterisks podcast, joins Ashley to dive deep into the complexities of navigating faith and family in the context of LGBTQ+ identities. Right off the bat, Jeff’s journey, sparked by his daughter’s coming out, turns into an inspiring story of transformation and love that challenges the rigid frameworks many grow up with. We chat about the absurd expectations placed on parents, the hilariously misguided beliefs about ‘lifestyle choices,’ and how crucial it is to create a safe space for open conversations. Jeff’s insights will not only make you rethink your own perspectives but also highlight the beauty that unfolds when we choose love over judgment. So, grab your headphones and get ready to laugh and learn as we navigate this heartwarming yet hilariously ridiculous journey together!
Navigating the complexities of faith and family can be a real rollercoaster, right? Jeff Cliff, the host of the Love Without Asterisks podcast, dives deep into this emotional terrain as he shares his journey of coming to terms with his daughter's identity as a member of the LGBTQ+ community. What starts as a typical family story quickly morphs into a profound exploration of love, acceptance, and the renovation of one’s beliefs. Jeff recounts how a conversation with his daughter turned their world upside down, challenging the deeply ingrained ideals he held from his conservative upbringing. As he reflects on the journey from a rule-based mindset to one rooted in love, listeners are invited to consider the importance of empathy and understanding in these often fraught discussions. Jeff’s narrative isn’t just about accepting a child’s identity; it's about reshaping family dynamics and prioritizing love over fear. This episode serves as a beacon for anyone grappling with similar issues, providing insights, humor, and a reminder that at the end of the day, love is the ultimate goal.
The conversation takes a candid turn as Jeff and Ashley discuss the stark realities many families face when a child comes out. The statistics surrounding mental health and LGBTQ+ youth are alarming, and Jeff emphasizes the critical role parents play in providing a supportive environment. He shares how his wife's shift to specializing in mental health for LGBTQ+ individuals stemmed from their family's experiences, highlighting the transformation that can occur when love takes precedence over judgment. They explore the idea that love is an action, not just a sentiment, and how families can navigate this sensitive terrain with compassion and curiosity. The episode is not just a personal story; it’s a call to action for parents and communities to foster environments where everyone feels safe and accepted. Jeff's insights shed light on the struggles and triumphs of raising an LGBTQ+ child, making this episode a must-listen for anyone looking to deepen their understanding of these vital issues.
As the discussion unfolds, Jeff and Ashley tackle the uncomfortable truths about societal perceptions of LGBTQ+ identities, especially within conservative circles. Jeff reflects on the dichotomy of loving a child versus adhering to traditional beliefs and how these conflicts often manifest in families. He emphasizes that it’s not about supporting a 'lifestyle,' but about recognizing and affirming a child's identity and humanity. The episode touches on the transformative encounters that can reshape our understanding and acceptance of others. Listeners will find themselves laughing, nodding along, and perhaps even shedding a tear as the conversation flows from lighthearted anecdotes to serious reflections on faith, acceptance, and unconditional love. Jeff's journey illustrates that while the path may be fraught with challenges, there's immense beauty on the other side when we choose love and understanding over fear and judgment. This episode is not just informative; it’s a heartfelt exploration of what it means to truly love without asterisks.
Takeaways:
- Jeff Click's podcast, Love Without Asterisks, focuses on bridging the gap between faith and LGBTQ+ identities.
- Navigating the complexities of a child's coming out is a journey filled with beauty and challenges.
- The importance of unconditional love in family dynamics cannot be overstated, especially for LGBTQ+ youth.
- Curiosity and open conversations are vital for understanding and supporting LGBTQ+ individuals in our lives.
Links referenced in this episode:
Transcript
Welcome back.
Speaker A:My name is Ashley, and this is the Black Sheep Christian Podcast.
Speaker A:And today I am honored to speak with Jeff Cliff.
Speaker A:Welcome.
Speaker B:Hi, Ashley.
Speaker B:How are you?
Speaker A:Good.
Speaker B:It's very nice to be on.
Speaker A:It's so nice that you and I connected.
Speaker A:Jeff is host of a podcast called Love Without Asterisks, who helps families and friends navigate the tension between their faith and their LGBTQ plus someone.
Speaker A:I kind of took that out from your.
Speaker B:That's exactly right.
Speaker B:Short and sweet.
Speaker B:That's.
Speaker B:That's the mission right there.
Speaker A:Oh, so beautiful mission.
Speaker A:I do want to read something to get us started.
Speaker A:Something from your website that.
Speaker A:That really touched me about what you guys do, and it's really part of your story.
Speaker A:And grew up in a conservative home.
Speaker A:Boom box checked in a weird way, but it is part of a beautiful journey.
Speaker A:So there's this paragraph that really touched me in which you said, for more than two decades, my professional life evolved around building, first as a home builder, then as a developer of office and retail communities.
Speaker A:I thought my work was about houses and buildings, but in hindsight, I see it was teaching me something bigger.
Speaker A:How blueprints can change, how structures can be torn down and rebuilt, and how even the strongest foundations can be reimagined.
Speaker A:I'm going right into the subject line here.
Speaker A:I found that paragraph beautiful because when I read this, it feels to me that.
Speaker A:That in the beginning, the mindset was very rule based and not based in love.
Speaker B:I would say that rules probably took precedence.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And that would.
Speaker B:That's probably consistent with at least me personality wise, just kind of.
Speaker B:As a.
Speaker B:As a matter of just growing up.
Speaker B:I mean, I was kind of a rule follower.
Speaker B:I thought it made sense to me.
Speaker B:It gave me the framework within which I could operate.
Speaker B:So whether it's.
Speaker B:Whatever we're talking about, whether it's, you know, our faith or.
Speaker B:Or the rules at school or the rules at home.
Speaker A:Yeah, but.
Speaker B:Yeah, but, yes, you're.
Speaker B:You're definitely picking up on.
Speaker B:On a major part of what we.
Speaker B:Of what I call a renovation, both in my heart, in my mind, and really in our.
Speaker B:In our entire family.
Speaker B:So there.
Speaker B:There is a.
Speaker B:There's a beautiful metaphor from what I've done professionally that really applies this whole.
Speaker B:Well, I think in this story.
Speaker B:And ironically enough, it's.
Speaker B:I know one of your other recent guests talked blueprints, too, because Wesley had his book, you know, the Blueprint of Becoming, I Believe, which sounds like a wonderful book.
Speaker B:I might have to check that out.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:It is kind of fitting how the Blueprints are coming together.
Speaker A:So to take a step back, tell us about your story because obviously you grew up in a conservative home.
Speaker A:Obviously you did the things that you need to do, but something just rocked your world.
Speaker B:That's right.
Speaker B:And so my wife and I both actually both, you know, we both grew up here in central Oklahoma.
Speaker B:We live in Oklahoma City.
Speaker B:I have my whole life, my wife more so traveling between Oklahoma and Texas through, you know, numerous moves as, as a child.
Speaker B:But both of us were raised in very similar mindsets, strongly influenced by conservative faith.
Speaker B:In my case, Southern Baptist was, was the kind of church that I grew up in.
Speaker B:I even went to a Southern Baptist university.
Speaker B:And you know, those, the things that you commonly learn there or are you share values with, with people in those circles, you know, those are strongly reinforced in an environment, in a community like ours, for the good and for the negative.
Speaker B:But here in Oklahoma City, you know, obviously we're the, as I've, as I've said numerous times, we're the capital state of the red, or the capital city of the reddest state in the country.
Speaker B:And naturally, as, as a father and a husband of a couple who has three beautiful children in the, in the case of this story, our oldest at the age of 13 at the time, you can, you can understand why it might have turned our world upside down when, you know, she has a very frank conversation with me about the fact that she knows for a fact that she is in fact attracted to females and not males.
Speaker B:And that was something that, you know, she, that was her coming out, if you will, in the conversation that she had with me.
Speaker B:And so what that's resulted in was really a seven year period of, of, I call it the renovation.
Speaker B:But it was, it was a lot of wrestling, a lot of struggling, a lot of relearning after unlearning.
Speaker B:So yeah, that's, that's, that's, I would say the genesis or the origin point of the story that led to the podcast.
Speaker B:For sure.
Speaker A:Yeah, I just want to commemorate.
Speaker A:That's not even a word to, I'll just use another word because my brain can't even comprehend what I'm trying to say.
Speaker A:But I want to congratulate and acknowledge your daughter's coming out because that is, that is one of the most courageous things a child can do, especially to a parent, because I can only imagine what her mind and her, her thinking was at that time, knowing your background, you and your wife's background.
Speaker A:And because you was.
Speaker A:Now question, was Grandma also living in the home because you, on your website said that you have multiple generations.
Speaker B:Correct.
Speaker B:My mother does live with us now.
Speaker B:That wasn't the case back then, but our life has evolved, and that's the case now.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:So I can only imagine your daughter at 13, coming out to you and your wife knowing your background and knowing what you guys stand for.
Speaker A:So for her to have that strength is.
Speaker A:Is powerful in itself.
Speaker B:Yeah, I'll second.
Speaker B:I'll second that.
Speaker B:Certainly in hindsight with new perspectives, you know, that I can look back with.
Speaker B:You're exactly right.
Speaker B:And, you know, I've come to understand, too, that really what was happening is.
Speaker B:Is in that moment, she was showing me her truest self.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And that's not something that's readily apparent at the moment for a parent when that's.
Speaker B:When that's happening.
Speaker B:Especially when you consider just, I would say that the viewpoints or the positions that we found ourselves most comfortable in at that time.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:You know, whether or not, you know, our home was never the type of home where these topics were, like, negatively reinforced in any.
Speaker B:By any stretch of the imagination.
Speaker B:I mean, we have numerous friends who are.
Speaker B:Who are, you know, part of the LGBTQ community, LGBTQ + community.
Speaker B:But as we experience, there's a big difference between having friends who are in the LGBTQ + community and having a child who is.
Speaker B:And there's.
Speaker B:There's a lot to riff on about that, too.
Speaker A:There is a lot, because it's kind of like.
Speaker B:It.
Speaker A:In my mind, and I could be completely incorrect.
Speaker A:There's like a separation.
Speaker A:You know, it's.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:It's like not in my home.
Speaker A:It can be in somebody else's home, but.
Speaker A:But not here.
Speaker A:You know, go over there and be friends with you.
Speaker A:But I'm not partaking or I'm not.
Speaker A:I'm trying to find the word supporting anything.
Speaker A:You know, it's there, and then I can come home to here.
Speaker B:You're exactly.
Speaker B:You're very much in the right territory there.
Speaker B:And I'll take it a step even further.
Speaker B:You know, for a friend or for someone in your.
Speaker B:In your orbit, you know, that you have no issue with, and you're just, you know, doing life with maybe at work or at school or whatever.
Speaker B:You know, you're not really responsible for.
Speaker B:For their salvation.
Speaker B:You're not really responsible for what may, depending upon your views, may be a lifestyle of sin.
Speaker B:And so there's literally and figuratively more skin in the game when it's your daughter sitting across from the breakfast table.
Speaker B:Yes, that's having this conversation with you, you know, so.
Speaker B:Yeah, so as you can imagine, that that really gave my wife and I a significant left turn in our life that we weren't anticipating.
Speaker B:And that kind of gets into, you know, the blueprint metaphor.
Speaker B:We had.
Speaker B:Here's where we live.
Speaker B:Here's kind of the way families live, where we live.
Speaker B:And, and we're going to go a step further and really plug ourselves into these communities.
Speaker B:And, you know, we were a homeschooling family.
Speaker B:And I've already talked about our upbringing.
Speaker B:You know, we were very involved in our church, and suddenly just the environment felt a little different for us for a number of reasons.
Speaker B:And, and those weren't, like, immediately obvious or immediately available to recognize.
Speaker B:It was just a part of the journey and part of the learning experience that, you know, I've.
Speaker B:I've.
Speaker B:I have come myself.
Speaker B:I have found myself in numerous opportunities lately that I've been consulted for ideas or advice or just, hey, you know, I've had friends who have reconnected with me and said, hey, you know, I know about your daughter's situation.
Speaker B:I'm starting to hear some, some language out of my child that, you know, I'm not familiar with, is, can we go to coffee and have.
Speaker B:Have a conversation about this?
Speaker B:And, you know, you kind of help me understand what I need to see here.
Speaker B:I was having enough of those encounters in my life where I felt like this is something I really need to try to maybe put out there in a way that might be able to reach people who aren't yet at a place where they have the fortitude to go ask somebody about it, or perhaps that I don't even have a connection with.
Speaker B:But if I can put some thought out there that really lands squarely with some people and helps them through a situation in their life that we didn't feel like we had much help with ourselves.
Speaker B:I think that's just kind of where I'm at.
Speaker B:And so that's what Love Without Asterisks really was born from, is that idea.
Speaker A:Yeah, that's beautiful.
Speaker A:It's funny with what we were talking about because.
Speaker A:And it kind of moves into this next.
Speaker A:Into this next point that I want to talk about is because what.
Speaker A:When we talk about the separation, it's okay, they're over there and it's not over here in my home.
Speaker A:And I know that there are members of my church who has a child that identifies.
Speaker A:And the one thing that is often said is I don't support that lifestyle.
Speaker A:You know, they're, you know, they're the, the child and the parent isn't talking.
Speaker A:And the parent would say, because that's the only viewpoint that I have.
Speaker A:You know, the issue is I don't support that lifestyle.
Speaker A:But it almost makes me feel as if, and correct me if I'm wrong, it's not the lifestyle that they're looking for us to support.
Speaker A:It's just who they are.
Speaker A:Their identity.
Speaker B:Their identity, their humanity.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Their freedom to have these, you know, to have this say in their own life.
Speaker B:And, and, you know, there are some, there are some very complex situations out there.
Speaker B:You know, you've got a, anytime, you've got a spectrum of, of where people can land on these things.
Speaker B:I, I, you know, everybody's situation is going to be different, you know, but in this, you know, kind of in, in the rhetorical example you just gave of someone saying, I don't support that lifestyle.
Speaker B:Isn't it interesting though, that that's kind of like, seems to be the only time anybody ever says something like that.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:You know, and why is that?
Speaker B:I don't know.
Speaker B:I mean, I didn't really ask you to support my child's lifestyle.
Speaker B:I just made a casual mention of her because we were talking about our kids.
Speaker B:You know, it's just there are so many little kind of tripping points that I didn't see as tripping points as just, you know, you know, your normal conservative dad raising his very conservative family.
Speaker B:And, you know, my wife and I were talking the other night, so we have two other children as well, and our, it's our oldest who is now an adult and out of the house.
Speaker B:That is the one who came out to us, you know, but we had this back to the blueprint idea.
Speaker B:We had this very specific design for our family.
Speaker B:And, you know, it was, it was just your kind of run of the mill, very conservative, plugged into their church.
Speaker B:Everything's Christian.
Speaker B:We listen to Christian music.
Speaker B:All of our radio stations are tuned into those stations.
Speaker B:And, you know, we support those artists and we support those ministries and, and there's nothing wrong with that.
Speaker B:What we found, though, is that we found we, we woke up one day so deeply embedded within the middle of that that we, we had very little connectivity with anyone who could offer a perspective that didn't seem like judgment or that didn't seem to carry risk with the conversation about it.
Speaker B:And that's everything just, you know, from the group texts to the, the conversations, you know, at church or whatever event we're at.
Speaker B:It just, it's not to say that we were.
Speaker B:If, you know, we didn't have a lot of hate thrown our way, per per se.
Speaker B:But what is.
Speaker B:What is a difficult thing to navigate at that point is the perceived and in some cases, the real silence.
Speaker B:And there was a. I've talked about this before on the podcast, and it's.
Speaker B:It was a very real and present thing for me was the idea that here I was in this environment, in these circles, and somehow I was expecting some fresh perspective or someone to come to my rescue, when, in fact, I was the one that was a mile down the road that nobody else was on.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So I had to.
Speaker B:To really sort of reshape my thinking about, like, not.
Speaker B:Not being.
Speaker B:Not holding animosity towards anyone for not being there for me.
Speaker B:I.
Speaker B:Because in reality, a lot of people perhaps didn't know how to be there for me.
Speaker B:What that led to was me looking outside of our circles just for some voice that seemed to resonate with me, that seemed to speak to the matters that I was wrestling with as a parent and even.
Speaker B:And we're focused very much on how it affects the parents here, but also at the same time to learn about what I need to be learning about for my daughter and how to support her and how to.
Speaker B:And the big topic here, how to love her.
Speaker B:Because it's easy to say that, oh, I love you unconditionally.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:But when those conditions, those real life altering conditions start popping in, you know, you start to think about how you say that, because what you learn is, if you're not too careful, that you may find instances where that's not entirely true.
Speaker B:And I'm trying to cast some light on those, because there were things we tripped over, my wife and I, so.
Speaker B:But as we wrestled through that over the seven years, you know, one of the things.
Speaker B:One of the very first things I did was actually search for a podcast for Christian parents of LGBTQ plus kids.
Speaker B:And there wasn't one.
Speaker B:This was, at the time, at least, and this was nearly a decade ago.
Speaker B:There have since been some that have come about, and they're great resources.
Speaker B:I love them.
Speaker B:I just felt like the way that I encountered our.
Speaker B:I experienced our story and the way I package it and the way I communicate it might be an alternative avenue through which somebody could find some meaning and derive some help, you know, as they struggle through this, whether they're a parent or whether, you know, they're just someone seeking a better understanding of how to love and support someone who's lgbtq.
Speaker A:Right, right.
Speaker B:That could be.
Speaker B:That could be a teacher that could be an aunt that could be a friend that could be a coworker.
Speaker B:So while the stories I share are often from the perspective of a parent, there's so many cast members in those stories, and you may be one of those cast members at any point, you know, in any point of your day.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:I mean, I'm sure.
Speaker B:I'm sure for the most part, any adult these days probably has someone in.
Speaker B:In their orbit in some way that is, you know, LGBTQ plus, whether, whether it's just something you suspect or something that's been a topic.
Speaker B:But I, you know, I believe that there's even things to be learned for people who may not be that close to it, but who might benefit from a better understanding of.
Speaker B:Of some of the.
Speaker B:The matters of importance to people in that community.
Speaker B:And I've just so happened to, you know, find a.
Speaker B:An unlikely dive into that, as led by my daughter.
Speaker B:And I've learned some things that I feel like are worth sharing.
Speaker A:Yeah, that's beautiful.
Speaker A:As you were speaking, I was thinking, because I'm sure there.
Speaker A:I. I'm not sure.
Speaker A:I know there are things that God would be like.
Speaker A:Ashley.
Speaker A:I don't think I like that so much, but at the end of the day, it's really about love and grace and mercy.
Speaker A:You know, there are things that each and every one of us have that God isn't too keen about, about a particular lifestyle, things that we like or do.
Speaker A:But it's all about, as you said, the unconditional love.
Speaker A:Because really, God gave you a gift, and that gift is to be loved irregardless of what this gift does or does not do.
Speaker A:All it needs is love.
Speaker A:And so to be able for you, to be able to.
Speaker A:Not to navigate through that and then to be able to share your story with others, because there is interesting criticism when it comes to having somebody in your family that identifies.
Speaker A:It's almost as if, like, you didn't do what you were supposed to do, you know?
Speaker B:Yeah, that feeling is very present as a parent, too.
Speaker B:And, And I, I would even acknowledge, like, say, for instance, our middle daughter Giovanna.
Speaker B:She, you know, she's 15, she's in high school, but at the time she was, you know, she was among friends who kind of had heard the term gay or, oh, your sister's lesbian.
Speaker B:And, you know, so siblings face.
Speaker B:Face some.
Speaker B:Some marginalization for it as well in, in some situations as.
Speaker B:As we encountered.
Speaker B:And then, you know, with that comes sort of the opinions that are often being re.
Speaker B:Regurgitated from what they hear at home.
Speaker B:But therein lies part of that, part of that challenge that, you know, you really don't see until you're in the middle of it as a parent, when you're, when you're.
Speaker B:And to your point about love, you know, I mean it, the way I end every single episode is the greatest of these is love.
Speaker B: aul says in First Corinthians: Speaker B:And, and it just feels a little bit these days, like maybe, maybe those priorities have gotten.
Speaker B:Gotten a little out of whack on in certain circles of faith communities, particularly on this topic.
Speaker B:You know, where my faith says this is wrong, therefore that's going to be primary to any love I'm ever going to show you.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:And, and then there's.
Speaker B:So then there's even the question of, okay, well, what is love?
Speaker B:Because we can say we love our children, you know, but we can describe it as a sentiment, but it's really an action, and that action has to be taken every single day.
Speaker B:So when, you know, when you're faced with a, with something that you deem as.
Speaker B:Well, we did.
Speaker B:We never took the, the language of like, oh, you know, this is the enemy, or, oh, you're possessed, or, oh, this is spiritual warfare.
Speaker B:I mean, those just.
Speaker B:We were seeing very practical examples of how this was playing out in our lived experience.
Speaker B:So really, the religiosity of it, you know, was more in our minds and in our hearts as parents.
Speaker B:But I would ask the question, you know, it's.
Speaker B:It's very easy for someone of a political, a particular political persuasion or a particular religious belief is very easy to have those, what I call drop the mic moments, you know, where you quote a Bible verse or you say the thing and you get to walk away.
Speaker B:But what am I supposed to do with that afterwards when I go home and have dinner with my daughter, right?
Speaker B:Am I supposed to just share that?
Speaker B:Oh, you'll never heard what I.
Speaker B:You'll never believe what so and so told me today that I'm supposed to share with you.
Speaker B:It's just.
Speaker B:That's just.
Speaker A:I.
Speaker B:It's just kind of a ridiculous thing that when you really sit down and think about it.
Speaker B:So the question is, is, well, what's next?
Speaker B:What does a parent do in this situation?
Speaker B:And how does that play out in real life?
Speaker B:Every day in the home, in the car, on the way to school, you know, in the trenches, as I say, where these things can get really dark, really Fast.
Speaker B:And you know, the statistics that really come into play, you know, these statistics run true across the board of, of no matter what your religious or political backgrounds may be.
Speaker B:But I think it often, these statistics often play out more in the, in the conservative religious homes because you know, you can look at the Trevor Project, which is a great resource for support and, and for, for statistics on LGBTQ, LGBTQ + youth matters.
Speaker B:But there for, for a, an LGBTQ + child who does not have an affirming parent at home, you know, they have a tremendous, like, it's, like it is an astounding number of times more likely that they're going to, to attempt, you know, make an attempt on their life or, or tiptoe towards that in some way.
Speaker B:You, you know, when one parent or one adult becomes affirming or is affirming in that child's life, it drops it dramatically.
Speaker B:But when both parents are, you know, those statistics really don't skew too harshly away from normal cisgender type situations.
Speaker B:And, and you know, they, there's again on the Trevor Project, you'll see the statistical evidence that shows, you know, when a family is, is affirming of the, of the, the identity of the child rather than, you know, constantly being negative about it, trying to manipulate them away from it, trying to pray the gay away, you know, those statistics really, you know, become a little bit closer to normal life, if you will.
Speaker B:And we, we had to learn that the hard way, unfortunately.
Speaker B:In fact, you know, mental health became such a factor in our house that one of the, one of the outcomes of this, besides the podcast was my wife who, you know, is a physician associate.
Speaker B:You know, she was a family practice kind of specialty at the time.
Speaker B:But as we were kind of coming out of the dust of this renovation, she chose to take her specialty.
Speaker B:She, she worked for a year to learn how to become a psychiatric pa and so now she sees, you know, she sees patients on a, on a semi daily basis, you know, with mental health challenges of various sorts.
Speaker B:But she's, she's become known as a very affirming, you know, LGBTQ + friendly care provider.
Speaker B:And that shows in her clientele list, you know, not that I get to see that, but you know, you, you kind of, you kind of get to hear, hey, generally speaking, wow, you wouldn't believe, you know, the kinds of stories that are coming from this.
Speaker B:So that's how we've activated on the love, I would say, or at least that's how we've responded from what we've learned on how to activate on the love.
Speaker B:But we see.
Speaker B:We see how important it is and we've come to understand that it's not so available.
Speaker B:It's not as available as it should be to people in this situation.
Speaker B:So it's caused us to kind of want to amplify our.
Speaker B:Our voice a little bit towards it, especially.
Speaker B:Especially in our community.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Where we are.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker A:That made me think about.
Speaker A:That makes me think about.
Speaker A:Because you said a couple of things and it made me think about a couple.
Speaker A:Couple of things.
Speaker A:If my mind can even.
Speaker A:Because.
Speaker A:Because I have, like, I have all these thoughts.
Speaker B:I have all day.
Speaker B:Let's go.
Speaker A:I have all these thoughts all at once, and I need to collect them.
Speaker A:One thing is, I don't remember what you said, but I remember a Bible study.
Speaker A:I don't remember what we were talking about or what we were studying, but I didn't know.
Speaker A:But there were probably about half of us in that room had a family member that identified.
Speaker A:And one person was very adamant in that, you can learn to be gay.
Speaker A:You can't be born gay.
Speaker A:You can learn.
Speaker A:And I remember how that just shut people down.
Speaker A:And I remember calling them and talking some of them about it and just to try and help understand what that message meant to others, you know, And I remember they were like, well, you can learn.
Speaker A:And I said, well, there are people out there who explore.
Speaker A:Sure, that is a true statement.
Speaker A:And I said, but to.
Speaker A:To be nice and diplomatic about it, I said, both can.
Speaker A:Can be true.
Speaker A:Both can be true.
Speaker A:And I don't know if I've ever changed their mind or even planted a seed, but.
Speaker A:But after that, when there was a clear sadness within the group because it was like, I express something about a family member and you shut that down.
Speaker A:And so it almost felt like as if they weren't loved in the same way, even though, you know, it wasn't them, but it was the family member that they had the love for.
Speaker A:And it almost is a sadness because I can all.
Speaker A:I can see the divide between those who have a family member and those who don't.
Speaker A:And it almost is as if those who don't refuse to understand because of, well, God said no to this.
Speaker A:And so therefore that's a hard line that they will never move in any shape or form.
Speaker B:That, yes, you're definitely in territory we're familiar with here.
Speaker B:Because in fact, this.
Speaker B:This particular example came to mind as I was saying something a few minutes ago, but I remember my wife kind of in the earlier times of this, when we were.
Speaker B:When we were still plugged in where we used to be plugged in socially, that she had observed on numerous occasions that they'd be standing around having their everyday conversations about their kids.
Speaker B:And often anytime our oldest daughter was brought up, even in the most casual way, suddenly the conversation turns political or theological.
Speaker B:And that, you know, that shows that people obviously find some discomfort in that and wrestle with that, maybe aren't even in comfort, they're not even comfortable with the topic, perhaps because they really don't even know how to have that conversation.
Speaker B:I don't want to be too careful to excuse, you know, people's inability or unwillingness to go do the work is kind of, I think, one of the things you're referring to.
Speaker B:But there's a, there's a. I just found out yesterday he's going to be a guest on my show.
Speaker B:His, his name is Dr. David P. Gushy, and he has a fantastic story that's too lengthy to get into right now, but he has a term that we've used ever since we learned it from him through his book, and he calls this a transformative encounter.
Speaker B:And he uses that in the context of something that you were alluding to while ago, that until someone has a transformative encounter that they can't avoid with someone in their life who's identifying, they probably lack the capacity to understand it fully.
Speaker B:And, and until, and it kind of goes back also to what I was saying about the drop the mic moments.
Speaker B:Well, until you have to live past that Bible verse, you probably don't have any reason to, to go wrestle with what's beyond it in real life.
Speaker B:And I, I don't wish that on anyone.
Speaker B:I mean, it's not something that I, looking back, I wouldn't change a thing.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:I don't, I don't want turmoil and wrestling on, on anyone, but it's, it is a necessary outcome in this, in this situation, especially if, if you don't want to live the harsh statistics that play out when you don't make a move to, you know, to understand things differently and see things differently in this case.
Speaker B:Yeah, so the transformative encounter was a big term that, that, that was a, it kind of moved the needle for us, especially given some of the, the, the, the authority and the weight behind Dr. Gushee's words.
Speaker B:Again, he'll be on my podcast in the, in probably episode four, which will probably come out in January.
Speaker B:But his, his story is, is very, very powerful and how he, where he began and where he ended up today.
Speaker B:And so, but beyond I. I don't want to, like, take anybody and force them into learning something they don't want to learn.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:However, I've learned that sitting in silence or being polite about not bringing my daughter up or bringing up a matter up that is near and dear to my heart, that's not being true to myself or true to my daughter.
Speaker B:And there are ways that.
Speaker B:That can be done in a. Hopefully in a way that don't have to be, you know, resulting in conflict or tension.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:So, yeah, that's.
Speaker B:That's part of what I'm hoping to do with this podcast.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:It's very.
Speaker B:I didn't do myself any favors because this isn't exactly the kind of content my audience is going to want to be sharing publicly.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:But, hey, I mean, there's probably going to be a lot.
Speaker B:It's funny, I do see a lot of, like, this was shared by dm, like, this number of times.
Speaker B:Like, well, that was shared a lot more than it was liked, you know, so clearly it's landing with somebody, but it's.
Speaker B:This is going to be a slow build of an audience for me, but I'm committed to it.
Speaker B:It's an important topic.
Speaker B:There's not enough of this conversation being had, especially in our communities, the communities like the one we come from, at least.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:And in these days, in this climate, I pray that you continue to walk in this journey that God has given you, because what people don't realize is that there are certain communities within society that are just more vulnerable than others.
Speaker A:And when it comes to the LGBTQ community, I feel like they are just canaries in a coal mine right now, in many facets, in the fact of policy, how they're being treated in workplaces and communities.
Speaker A:And if we don't support each other, then there can be a time when nobody can be supported.
Speaker A:And so I do pray that God will protect you and your family and in the work that you and your wife do.
Speaker B:I appreciate that.
Speaker B:Thank you.
Speaker A:You're welcome.
Speaker A:I was thinking about another question in particular, and that is pronouns.
Speaker A:And I have a co worker who has a daughter.
Speaker A:And this is very interesting in the fact that, you know, in one setting, it's a pronoun of they, but then when it's a different group of people, it's a different pronoun, she, and all.
Speaker A:Because, you know, one area is accepting while one area is not there yet.
Speaker B:I know.
Speaker B:I know this situation very well.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:And so for.
Speaker A:For all parties involved.
Speaker A:What?
Speaker A:For all parties Involved.
Speaker A:I will say that.
Speaker A:What is.
Speaker A:What advice can.
Speaker A:Can you give?
Speaker B:Where to start.
Speaker A:That.
Speaker A:That was a big one.
Speaker A:That's why.
Speaker A:Because when you think about it, nobody isn't wrong.
Speaker A:I just think about the individual who identifies.
Speaker A:They're not being.
Speaker A:I don't want to use validated.
Speaker A:I don't even know if that's the appropriate word.
Speaker A:Affirmed is usually they're not affirmed in who they are.
Speaker A:And, And.
Speaker A:And it's not that they are lying about who they are.
Speaker A:If it.
Speaker A:It's almost like as if.
Speaker A:I don't know.
Speaker B:Well, I. I think I can pick it up from here.
Speaker B:That's.
Speaker B:I. I appreciate that question.
Speaker B:Because honestly, the answer to the question is.
Speaker B:More questions.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker B:The number of.
Speaker B:The number of times I would have loved for a friend to ask me a tough question about what I'm going through with my daughter.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:That would have been water in a desert.
Speaker B:You know, how are you.
Speaker B:How are you reconciling this with your faith or, hey, tell me about your kid.
Speaker B:What are you guys struggling through right now?
Speaker B:What's this like, you know, what has changed?
Speaker B:What's changed in your mind that maybe I need to know about?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I mean, I mentioned earlier, there's just, you know, anytime you're in a room with an LGBT, LGBTQ + person, there's a cast in there.
Speaker B:There's a cast of characters.
Speaker B:What kind of cast member are you going to be in that room?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Are you going to be the one that makes that person feel like they belong in that room or the one that, you know, contributes to those.
Speaker B:Making them feel like they don't belong?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:To me, that's.
Speaker B:That's a very easy.
Speaker B:Very easy tweak to make in an attitude and on a moment's notice.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:I mean, if you have to do that.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:But just understand that you may have a role to play.
Speaker B:And I'm speaking to the person who's not familiar, you know, with this.
Speaker B:This environment, this vibe.
Speaker B:You know, maybe they're.
Speaker B:They're uncomfortable by it.
Speaker B:Questions, curiosity, concern.
Speaker B:Those are all things.
Speaker B:The big word right now that seems to be on the chopping block.
Speaker B:Chopping block.
Speaker B:Empathy.
Speaker B:I mean, really, like, we're.
Speaker B:We're trying to.
Speaker B:To rein that in these days when it's needed most.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:So curiosity, I think, is probably, if I could sum it up in one word, curiosity would be something that I would say, have it, step into it, tiptoe gently, you know, But I would say that any reasonable adult, like, in the case of me as the parents, that's kind of what I always come back to because it's my, my lived experience.
Speaker B:You know, unless you're just coming up being straight up, like anti.
Speaker B:I'm not.
Speaker B:There's not going to be a question that I'm going to like, shy away from.
Speaker B:It's like, to me, that's, I'm proud of you for being interested and thank you for asking me that because nobody else around here, you know, I'm not saying no one, but it's just, it seems to be taboo to talk about it and it taboo to ask about it.
Speaker B:And I understand that some people may feel like, well, I, I don't have the terminology.
Speaker B:I don't know.
Speaker B:I'm afraid I'm going to say something wrong.
Speaker B:Well, welcome to parent.
Speaker B:Welcome to parenting one of those children.
Speaker B:Because God knows we didn't get everything right.
Speaker B:I mean, the number of times, you know, we said something wrong that we had no idea was wrong or, or you.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:And I don't mean to imply that it's just some big, you know, you got to learn new vocabulary.
Speaker B:You got to do this and that.
Speaker B:I'm not asking for anybody to jump through hoops.
Speaker B:I'm just saying that, hey, be curious.
Speaker B:Don't be so uncomfortable.
Speaker B:I mean, and to your point earlier about how, whether it's, you know, born with it or chosen, and I agree with you, I think both cases exist in the world.
Speaker B:But, you know, my wife and I had a conversation long before this was even a part of our story as far as parents.
Speaker B:But before we even have kids, we have a member in our family that we've gotten the privilege of walking, of being able to watch him grow up from birth to an adult.
Speaker B:And I remember one time coming home after some family event and saying to my wife, hey, you know, I wouldn't say this to anybody but you, but if, if that kid turns out, you know, gay, that's going to change my mind about whether or not you can be born this way.
Speaker B:And I want to, I want to point out that this is 20 year, 20 year old or 20 years ago, me.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Not today.
Speaker B:And she kind of laughed and she was like, that's the same thing I was thinking.
Speaker B:And here we are 20 something years later and you know, this kid is one of the most wonderful kids to be around.
Speaker B:He's a joy.
Speaker B:He's, you know, he turned out, you know, as we at the time suspected.
Speaker B:But that was a, that was a huge experience for us to, to.
Speaker B:I'm thankful for that in the sense that it sort of took that topic off the table for us with our daughter, you know, and she was, she was 13 when she came out and, you know, to the point about, well, supporting a lifestyle or they're living a life of sin.
Speaker B:Well, at that time she was just talking about who she was attracted to.
Speaker B:That's it.
Speaker B:It's not like she had been out there partying and going to clubs and coming home with people.
Speaker B:I mean, she's 13, right.
Speaker B:So it's like, okay, tell me what sin it is.
Speaker B:I'm, I'm, as a parent, I'm sitting here supporting.
Speaker B:I'm loving my daughter and I'm trying to understand where she's coming from.
Speaker B:And the more you, the more you do that, the more you understand there's more to understand.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And so I would say that curiosity would, would definitely be the one thing that I would hope for in those situations among people in a room where they're wondering what to say, if anything at all.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:It made me think I had to stupid that I was like, are young people even going to clubs these days?
Speaker B:I've read that that's kind of like a dying trend, you know.
Speaker A:Oh, for real?
Speaker B:Well, I mean, I think, yeah.
Speaker B:I don't know if they've ever fully recovered from COVID but that's not, that's not my lane.
Speaker B:I don't know.
Speaker A:I was like, is club still a thing?
Speaker A:This really says my age be like, and what are they weari today?
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Well, we've got a 15 year old coming up the ranks.
Speaker B:I'll have me back in a year or two.
Speaker B:I'll answer that.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:All right.
Speaker A:All right.
Speaker A:I'm just so curious.
Speaker A:I'm just so curious, you know, so.
Speaker B:On, on the pronouns, though.
Speaker B:So, like we have holidays coming up and this is always a really challenging scenario for families on either side of this issue.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:I can assure you there's one side of the family that it's much more difficult on and it's.
Speaker B:And it's the one wondering about what's going to be said or is uncle so and so going to keep his mouth shut?
Speaker B:Or, you know, do I let this kid out of my sight with the cousins who, you know, may not treat him well, or treat her well.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:But that's, you know, I asked Sarah Cunningham the same question.
Speaker B:She's.
Speaker B:She's my guest on episode two that releases November 1st.
Speaker B:Sarah Cunningham is the founder of Free Mom Hugs.
Speaker B:Wonderful story.
Speaker B:Check that out sometime.
Speaker B:But you know, she she said that she had a wonderful answer, and I don't remember exactly what she said.
Speaker B:She had, like, three different scenarios that you could kind of opt into, depending upon, you know, where you saw your family coming out on this.
Speaker B:It's like, you know, you can either not go, you can leave, or you can, you know, try to lay some policy down on agreement of what is and what's not on the table.
Speaker B:And I don't want to put words in her mouth, but she had a very.
Speaker B:She.
Speaker B:This is something she says on a regular basis.
Speaker B:So it was very eloquent the way she said it.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:But that's just kind of how I see about the way to approach it because, you know, we know we can't control other people or their mouths.
Speaker B:Some people can't control their own mouths.
Speaker B:It's just a.
Speaker B:It's an unfortunate dynamic that's really at play here in some of these scenarios.
Speaker B:And yeah, it just, it's.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:It can be harmful.
Speaker B:It can be hurtful.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Well said.
Speaker A:You said something that, that gave me a thought, which is, first of all, when a child comes out is.
Speaker A:Is just faith.
Speaker A:Like when we talk about faith, that.
Speaker A:That's faith in itself to be able to come out to somebody about who you are.
Speaker A:What is the right way or the wrong way in responding when a child or a teenager in your situation decides to come out?
Speaker B:That's an excellent question, because that's something we've pondered for a long time, my wife and I, something that I seeing more and more of, seeing scenarios where people have responded in different ways.
Speaker B:And I'm seeing trends, you know, to.
Speaker B:To the point of your question, the one, the one answer I gave a friend of mine who asked me this about his child.
Speaker B:I said, I just right off the tip of my tongue was be soft.
Speaker B:Don't respond harshly.
Speaker B:This is a moment.
Speaker B:This is one of those moments that neither one of you is ever going to forget.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:And how you respond is going to set the tone for both of you moving forward.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And I sure as heck would not want to be behind having to play catch up, because my response was not what it should have been.
Speaker B:The second is big theme here.
Speaker B:Don't delay.
Speaker B:A lot of parents, us included, think the smart play is to, well, let's just see if this is a phase.
Speaker B:Let's just, let's.
Speaker B:Let's not, let's not freak out here, but let's not, you know, oh, wait, she's bringing a rainbow.
Speaker B:You know, she's putting a rainbow in the room, and now all of a sudden, we got to take a stance.
Speaker B:It's like that's.
Speaker B:There's that kind of tension there, right?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:So that came from us not being willing or ready, understandably, to do some work on this topic.
Speaker B:Now, we didn't know what work to do yet, and that's part of what I'm trying to resolve with this podcast.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Because in our circles, our church didn't offer anything.
Speaker B:There was no small group, despite being a small group, for three other thousand life situations.
Speaker B:You know, if our daughter had committed suicide or if our daughter had, you know, had.
Speaker B:Had passed away, there would be a group for parents of survivors of that, but there's not.
Speaker B:There wasn't a group for parents of LGBTQ kids.
Speaker B:You know, and.
Speaker B:And, you know, regardless of where you stand on whether or not homosexuality is a sin, I'm a parent of a home of a homosexual child.
Speaker B:Where's the sin in me?
Speaker B:Why?
Speaker B:Why?
Speaker B:You know, there's no group that I can be a part of to.
Speaker B:To work this out and see how other parents are rectifying this.
Speaker B:And, you know.
Speaker B:You know, so it led us to have to look elsewhere.
Speaker B:I feel like I've gotten off the beaten path of your question, though, have I?
Speaker B:Am I still on track?
Speaker A:You're good.
Speaker A:You're still good.
Speaker B:So I don't necessarily know where to take that next, so.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:No, you're good.
Speaker A:I remember a kid came out to me, six, I think they were.
Speaker A:And I remember it was.
Speaker A:I was so nonchalant about it, and it wasn't even a coming out.
Speaker A:It was a qu.
Speaker A:It was a test.
Speaker A:And the test was.
Speaker A:That's what I call it.
Speaker A:It was a test.
Speaker A:And the question was, what do I think?
Speaker A:And I was just so preoccupied with what I was doing.
Speaker A:I. I didn't really care about the question.
Speaker A:I was like, I don't know.
Speaker A:They do what they want to do.
Speaker A:Like.
Speaker A:Like, it was so nonchalant, just so I can continue doing what I was doing.
Speaker A:And then after it was done, they're like, okay.
Speaker A:And then they went off and played, and I was like.
Speaker A:And so it hit me.
Speaker A:I was like, wait a minute.
Speaker A:Wait a minute.
Speaker A:Wait a.
Speaker A:Like, my brain just, like, caught up to what just happened.
Speaker A:And I remember years later, I went up to them, and I was like, I feel like what you were saying to me was, like, rude.
Speaker A:Like, Like, I was rude.
Speaker A:And then they were like, no, you being nonchalant was the best thing, because that meant that I didn't have any strong emotion about it.
Speaker B:I believe that.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I was sitting there thinking that may have been the best thing you could have done.
Speaker A:I was just trying to do adult things.
Speaker A:Why are you bugging me, kid?
Speaker A:I'm trying to do these adult things.
Speaker B:You know, I, in, in the moment that I remember well with our daughter, I, you know, I gave her a hug, I give her a good hug and I told her, I was like, hey, we'll work through this.
Speaker B:You know, I'm.
Speaker B:Doesn't change how I love you.
Speaker B:I feel like, you know, we said all the right things.
Speaker B:It's just that how that plays out afterwards sometimes is where the chat, when the challenge starts to kick in, when you start to realize, oh my God, this is changing my child's life and mine.
Speaker B:I mean, yeah, like, you know, you start to think about your own social circles and, you know, who can I.
Speaker B:Who is it even safe to talk to about this?
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:You know, your children, or in our case, you know, that going to school.
Speaker B:We homeschooled for a while, but at the time, shortly, it was either around that time or shortly after they were in a private Christian school, which was a concern for me too.
Speaker B:Unfortunately, that that didn't be true proved to be terribly problematic.
Speaker B:You know, what was interesting is I think we were pleasantly surprised and loved the fact that a few teachers kind of recognized the dynamic at play here and you know, made themselves available and said, hey, you know, you ever need to come hang out in this classroom anytime you can.
Speaker B:I've had some wonderful conversations with people in that school since then.
Speaker B:And so I know that hearts are in the right place there.
Speaker B:Despite perhaps what, what missions may say on paper.
Speaker B:That's a whole nother matter we can get to some other day, you know, but as far as my daughter was concerned, that was a good thing.
Speaker B:So the, the friends, you know, back to what you were saying about choosing this.
Speaker B:Something I write about.
Speaker B:I have a little side email mess like a. I have the podcast and then I have what I call a companion thing for a companion piece for it.
Speaker B:It's a, it's an eight week email journey where I, I use our story and our experience and the blueprint metaphor, the construction language that, that I try to use to help kind of illustrate some of this.
Speaker B:It's an eight week series of emails and one of the ones that I, that I have in that series I talk about or it's a two part email.
Speaker B:I talk first about what it does to our friends as the parents in this case.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:How it kind of gerrymanders your social circles a little bit and you start to see some of it's real, some of it's perceived, but you start to see some sorting if you will, of who's going to side with you and who's not.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And that comes at different weird times.
Speaker B:Sometimes you seldom want it to happen on Facebook, but that's usually where it happens.
Speaker B:But you know, in the comments section.
Speaker B:But the thing too to remember about in the case of being parents and watching your children go through this experience, it's really easy for someone of faith or who, who is not in support of their child moving forward in this life.
Speaker B:It's very easy to, to say, well my child wasn't acting like that until they started hanging out with so and so.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:That'S low hanging fruit conclusion drawing there to say, well somebody recruited my child into this.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:You know, the, the gay agenda is not a Ponzi scheme.
Speaker B:You know, it's not, it's, I mean it's a community but it's not a club they're recruiting for.
Speaker B:Right, right.
Speaker B:But what, what is happening there is your child is finding belonging.
Speaker B:Your child is, is connecting with someone perhaps who, who understands what they're going through, who gets it.
Speaker B:You know, I mean it's, it's a good thing if your child has somebody that they can relate with and go connect with and whether it's a small group of, small circle of friends or people at the school or it's very easy to feel like, oh that's, that's a threatening situation and, and to the teacher, back to the teachers I refer to in that one reference.
Speaker B:You know, it's very easy as an adult if you see someone step in who is supporting your child.
Speaker B:It's very easy as an adult when you're coming from that conservative or that anti mindset to feel threatened by that adult relationship.
Speaker B:But that may be the best thing that's happening to your child, especially if you're not providing that at home.
Speaker B:If your child can't find enough belonging and an affirmation at home, they have to find it somewhere.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:Or you're going to be living the statistics.
Speaker B:Yeah, it's just, that's, that's how it plays out.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Or they're going to live the rest of their life with, with terrible harm having been done to their, to their psyche, to their self worth or self motivation, to their faith.
Speaker B:And so I just, I really have a passion for shining lights on, on these not so obvious factors that come into play.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:It made me think as I'm looking at time, because this conversation is really going with this journey and this conversation that we have.
Speaker A:And I will have two questions left, which is one is as I'm thinking about how.
Speaker A:Because I know my daughter has friends that identify.
Speaker A:And I remember in particular, at where I work at the university, there was a table for.
Speaker A:For the LGBT Club plus, and they had, like, pens, like, buttons and buttons and with the different flags.
Speaker A:And I remember I just.
Speaker A:Just my hand.
Speaker A:I just grabbed flags or buttons that had the flags.
Speaker A:And then my daughter was like.
Speaker A:My daughter was like, well, what about this type of flag?
Speaker A:And I was like, I don't know what these flags mean, Jay.
Speaker A:I was like, I. I don't know what none of these flags mean.
Speaker A:Just know that I support the hand grabbed what it could grab.
Speaker A:And I remember, Jay, my daughter went to school and passed them out to their friends because the feds identify.
Speaker A:And they were like, what about.
Speaker A:Because I. I can't remember what flag it was, but it was a particular popular flag.
Speaker A:And Jay was like, listen, the hand grabbed what it could grab.
Speaker A:And so.
Speaker B:It'S a great example of how our kids repeat what they learn from their parents, isn't it?
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:But it is leading to a question.
Speaker A:But for me, I remember with Jay's friends, I was like, listen, I love y' all and support, you know, but I can only go so far, you know, like.
Speaker A:Like, I can.
Speaker A:I can be an advocate of who you are as people, but there are just.
Speaker A:There are groups that are forming their identities.
Speaker A:How the way these identities move and think, Like, I. I don't have the capacity for that, because that's not my battle, but I'm here to love and support.
Speaker A:And the question that I have is, how can those.
Speaker A:Whether they are learning or transforming, because that is a lot of information.
Speaker A:What is the best way to approach when they are just fresh and new in this world?
Speaker B:Well, first, thanks for.
Speaker B:Thanks for how you're teaching your child.
Speaker B:That's.
Speaker B:That's awesome.
Speaker B:And that's helpful.
Speaker B:It's helpful.
Speaker B:It just adds to.
Speaker B:To the greatness of the world.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And that's kind of what we're all trying to do here, is move in that direction.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Is your question coming from the standpoint of, like, how does a person without experience gain experience?
Speaker B:Is.
Speaker B:Yeah, that'd be a fair way.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:Yeah, I give.
Speaker B:I give another.
Speaker B:In one of my other emails in that series that I did, I. I have an example where I. I assert that One of the best ways that you can gain fluency in, shall we just call it, for the purpose of this question, LGBTQ +interaction.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Is to try it out on somebody else besides your child.
Speaker B:And I tell the story in the context of, you know, Sundays are my grocery shopping days.
Speaker B:When.
Speaker B:When Desiree went into practice as the.
Speaker B:As a psychiatrist pa, we shifted around a few things and grocery shopping, something I do now, and I do it on Sundays.
Speaker B:And there's this.
Speaker B:There's this great person who works at the store I shop at, and they are often at the cash register or bagging groceries.
Speaker B:And you mentioned buttons earlier.
Speaker B:This person had a Love Wins button on one day.
Speaker B:It happened to be Pride Week here in Oklahoma City this summer when this happened.
Speaker B:And I just casually said, hey, like your pen.
Speaker B:That's it.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Conversation started.
Speaker B:And immediately they looked up to me and made eye contact, and you could tell just a slight countenance change and, oh, okay, somebody who's friendly on this topic.
Speaker B:So do you get to go to Pride?
Speaker B:Did you get to go to the parade?
Speaker B:And they said, you know, fortunately, my parents aren't up for letting me do that.
Speaker B:I still live at home.
Speaker B:And it's just, you know, they're not.
Speaker B:They're not for that.
Speaker B:So I had this conversation with.
Speaker B:With them and, and just.
Speaker B:It didn't go anywhere per se, but the conversation was all that was necessary in that case.
Speaker B:I walked away with a fresh perspective on.
Speaker B:In fact, I walked.
Speaker B:I walked back to my car.
Speaker B:I'm not a very emotional guy, but I. I walk back to my car almost.
Speaker B:Almost crying over that, because I thought about the fact that this child's parents, this.
Speaker B:This child doesn't know where their parents stand.
Speaker B:That was part of the conversation we had after.
Speaker B:I just didn't.
Speaker B:Didn't go through everything else we talked about, but.
Speaker B:And it was like that was.
Speaker B:That was an extra straw on.
Speaker B:On the.
Speaker B:On the Camel's Back for me to start this podcast.
Speaker B:Is that.
Speaker B:Is conversations like that.
Speaker B:But back to your question.
Speaker B:My point is this.
Speaker B:Simple interactions, they.
Speaker B:They start there.
Speaker B:Because think about this.
Speaker B:You know, if.
Speaker B:If that's your motive, if you're trying to gain some fluency and some.
Speaker B:Just some familiarity with this and some comfort level.
Speaker B:I mean, you're helping yourself, but I guarantee you're helping that other person.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:You know, if.
Speaker B:If you're in that room that we talked about earlier and there's an LGBTQ plus person in there, and, you know, sometimes we can identify them, sometimes we can't.
Speaker B:Often it's ambiguous.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:But so what?
Speaker B:They're another person in the room.
Speaker B:Go have a conversation.
Speaker B:Hey, I really like your vibe.
Speaker B:Can you tell me more about kind of what this style is?
Speaker B:That's a great, that's a great intro for someone you suspect is trans or non binary.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:You know, not that you have to know.
Speaker B:And it, it's not like that's the end game is to know what their label is.
Speaker B:I mean most, there are a lot of people who don't like the labels.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And, and so just having, have the interaction, that's, that's all it has to be.
Speaker B:And you'll know, you'll know where to take it from there.
Speaker A:Well said.
Speaker A:Well said.
Speaker A:Because in the end it's really about, you know, God leading us.
Speaker A:As long as he leads us, it will be good.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:And it's that, it's that curiosity that can help you there.
Speaker B:You know, it's set aside the fear and the unfamiliarity.
Speaker B:I mean, what's gonna happen?
Speaker B:Yeah, there's a video, there's a video I just saw this morning of it's making the rounds of a delivery guy who walks up on the porch of a house.
Speaker B:It's like a ring camera video.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Have you seen this?
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:And there's a rainbow flag hanging like right there at an angle as you walk up the steps.
Speaker B:And this person doesn't real, this delivery person like kind of has that flag rub against their shoulder as they walk the package up.
Speaker B:And you see that delivery person walking back to the car like wiping their shoulder like some, you know, seven year old child just got cooties.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:I mean, what are we thinking?
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:So it all stems from fear.
Speaker B:It all stems from, from unfamiliarity.
Speaker B:And you know, we know where that gets stoked.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:My last question as we come to a close is about your journey and it is.
Speaker A:What is the one thing that surprised you the most?
Speaker B:It's a great question.
Speaker B:I would say the beauty on the other side because, you know, as unfamiliar.
Speaker A:As.
Speaker B:Intimidated, as concerned, as worried, as hurt and grieving I was and my wife was, we would both agree that there's so much beauty to be found that you can't see when you're blinded by other things.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker A:I don't know why I want to tear up.
Speaker A:That's beautiful.
Speaker B:Thanks.
Speaker B:I'll wipe mine too.
Speaker B:You can go ahead and wipe yours and I'll wipe my.
Speaker A:Thank you, Jeff.
Speaker A:Love without asterisks.
Speaker A:You can find them a major podcast and also love WOA.com.
Speaker A:i just want to thank you.
Speaker A:I am honored and blessed to hear your story and to learn your story and, and I pray for you and your family to continue to be able just to live the life that God has planned for you.
Speaker B:Thank you for that.
Speaker B:There's so much value in those words, you know, these conversations.
Speaker B:I mean, yeah, there's cameras rolling and yeah, this is going to go out, but there's so much value in just this one on one right here.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And your openness to the conversation, your openness to help me get the word out about this is valued as well.
Speaker B:But just two humans here interacting is such a great thing and so I'm grateful for that.
Speaker B:I wish you and the podcast the best.
Speaker B:And, you know, maybe next time when you grab buttons, you know, there'll be some new ones available because they tend to change.
Speaker A:They do, they do.
Speaker A:It's funny because the second time around there was a bow and because it wasn't a, it wasn't like a table, but it was an office, so it was a bow.
Speaker A:And I was like, okay.
Speaker A:I was like, I was, I nearly dumped it out and I was like, okay, let me make sure that I got every single flag that's in this bow and I got multiple.
Speaker A:Anybody out?
Speaker A:Oh, goodness.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Hey, can I, can I, can I throw one more.
Speaker B:Just little, little plug in here real quick.
Speaker B:So for anyone out there who, if you have someone in your life and you want to maybe understand a little bit more about what life might be like or how you can improve your interactions with them or learn more about, you know, just ways to be a fellow good human with them.
Speaker B:My Metamorphosis email series is right there.
Speaker B:You mentioned the website lovewa.com.
Speaker B:you can go down on that front page lower.
Speaker B:There's a lower block that you can subscribe to right there.
Speaker B:It's free.
Speaker B:It's just, it's an eight week deal.
Speaker B:You get a few email, you get an email every few days and it kind of moves you through a story and through some metaphors to help kind of illustrate some of these points that we've talked about today.
Speaker B:But I've had some great, some great feedback on that and it's just an opportunity for you to do it on your own time.
Speaker B:And if you don't like reading, there's even a have me read it to you link.
Speaker B:So I've kind of recorded every one of those emails, much like a podcast episode.
Speaker A:Oh, wow, that's beautiful.
Speaker A:Thank you.
Speaker A:Thank you for sharing that.
Speaker B:Well, thanks for the opportunity to.
Speaker A:Yeah, well, audience that is today.
Speaker A:I want to thank you for watching.
Speaker A:And remember, God is love.
Speaker A:And God wants you to show his love to the world.
Speaker A:Until next time.
Speaker A:Later.
Speaker A:And boom.
