Episode 516

God Jots and Forgiveness: A Conversation with Ender Bowen

Published on: 6th July, 2025

Ender Bowen from Godjots.com swings by to chat about his new book on forgiveness, and let me tell you, he’s got some thoughts! Right off the bat, we dive into why forgiveness is like the secret sauce for healing relationships and easing all that societal tension we seem to be swimming in. Seriously, whether you’re holding a grudge or just annoyed at the cashier who messed up your order, this convo hits home. And trust me, it ain't just about letting things slide; it’s about taking that first step to offer forgiveness and see what happens next. Ender brings a fresh perspective on how we can approach forgiveness—not like some high-and-mighty spiritual exercise, but as a real, messy, human experience that could totally change the game. So, grab your earbuds and get ready to rethink how you handle all that baggage we carry around.

Links referenced in this episode:

Transcript
Speaker A:

Welcome back.

Speaker A:

My name is Ashley, and this is a Black Sheep Christian podcast.

Speaker A:

And today I have creative entrepreneur Ender Bowen.

Speaker B:

Yes.

Speaker B:

Thank you.

Speaker A:

I was so nervous.

Speaker A:

Okay, guys.

Speaker B:

I.

Speaker B:

Don't be nervous.

Speaker B:

Don't be nervous.

Speaker A:

I am.

Speaker A:

So, first of all, I'm dyslexic, so that's a challenge in itself.

Speaker B:

Oh, my gosh.

Speaker B:

That has to be.

Speaker B:

Honestly, I love to read and write, so I can't imagine what kind of struggle that is.

Speaker B:

Like, man, I feel for you.

Speaker A:

So when I see a word or something that is just not within my normal vocabulary that I normally read, I just.

Speaker A:

I just.

Speaker A:

It's just an anxiety.

Speaker A:

And I actually.

Speaker A:

I got through the seventh grade until I was formally diagnosed.

Speaker A:

So until then, what I would do during school is I would get myself out of reading in order to memorize.

Speaker A:

So if I didn't, let's say the word like apple, for example, and I didn't know how to say it, you know, I would get myself out of it to have somebody else read it.

Speaker A:

And then I'll be like, okay, these.

Speaker A:

This is the order that these letters go, and that's apple, and this order.

Speaker A:

And so I would just memorize.

Speaker A:

So I just basically memorized.

Speaker B:

I was gonna say, you know how sometimes they do those.

Speaker B:

I can't think of what they're called, where they.

Speaker B:

They'll show you, like, a meme, Right?

Speaker B:

And it'll.

Speaker B:

Everything be spelled wrong.

Speaker B:

Yeah, It'll be those words, like the same letters, and you can read it fine.

Speaker B:

Yes.

Speaker B:

Like, did it.

Speaker B:

Was it kind of like that?

Speaker B:

Not necessarily in how it looked, but, like, once you saw Apple, even if it looked weird, did it always look weird the same way to you?

Speaker B:

And could you just read it like that?

Speaker B:

Does that make sense?

Speaker A:

Almost like it does now.

Speaker A:

If it was spelled wrong, then my mind will be like, it.

Speaker A:

It would just really.

Speaker A:

And I remember one story that my mom remembered was Lemon.

Speaker A:

And I was so upset because it wasn't spelled.

Speaker A:

I thought it was lemon, but I can't remember the word.

Speaker A:

And it wasn't spelled right.

Speaker A:

And I was like, these.

Speaker A:

This is it.

Speaker A:

And my mom was like, that was the first sign that she knew that something was wrong, because she was like, I was crying because I was so sure Lemon was spelled the way it was.

Speaker A:

Completely different word.

Speaker B:

So.

Speaker A:

So if the letters aren't right, then my brain is like, what.

Speaker A:

What.

Speaker A:

What is happening here?

Speaker B:

So, like, as long as it's spelled right, you.

Speaker B:

You can kind of figure it out because it looks the same consistently.

Speaker A:

Right.

Speaker B:

But if it's spelled wrong.

Speaker B:

It looks like a completely different thing.

Speaker A:

Yes.

Speaker B:

Yeah.

Speaker B:

That's interesting.

Speaker B:

That's the first time I've.

Speaker B:

I'll be honest with you.

Speaker B:

Like, I.

Speaker B:

I've met dyslexic people.

Speaker B:

I've.

Speaker B:

I've met people who've struggled with that, and no one has ever described to me what it actually kind of like, looks like.

Speaker B:

It's kind of like people describing colorblindness or something like that.

Speaker B:

You know, it's.

Speaker B:

It's kind of the same color all the time, and it may not look the same as what we understand as green, for instance, but if you understand what that is, then you can.

Speaker B:

You would know it's green.

Speaker A:

Yeah.

Speaker B:

Flips off the shades and stuff that you go, I don't know what that is.

Speaker B:

That's interesting.

Speaker A:

Yeah.

Speaker A:

It's almost memorizing shapes in a particular pattern.

Speaker A:

Like.

Speaker A:

Like.

Speaker B:

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker A:

And so if it's weird, if the pattern isn't right, then the brain is just like.

Speaker A:

I don't know what this.

Speaker B:

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B:

The way brains work is so amazing to me.

Speaker B:

Like, I think if I had.

Speaker B:

If I had applied myself better or maybe thought in retrospect, because I took a bachelor of arts in music at a liberal arts school, so it wasn't like a music school.

Speaker B:

Yeah, it was music because I.

Speaker B:

I could pass those.

Speaker B:

I do really well them.

Speaker B:

And my first semester was not good, so I kind of had to do something that.

Speaker B:

That was good.

Speaker B:

But if I could go back, I took a couple psychology courses and a couple philosophy courses.

Speaker B:

If I could go back, I would.

Speaker B:

I would probably do something more focused on those.

Speaker B:

Because I found as an adult, maybe history too, because I found as an adult, I really.

Speaker B:

Most of what I do and I'm interested in and.

Speaker B:

And how I do the different things that I do is very much rooted in a lot of those things, plus, like, a little bit of religious studies and that kind of thing.

Speaker B:

So I like thinking about things like how, you know, faith and religion and.

Speaker B:

And.

Speaker B:

And even an academic study of those kinds of things can weave into philosophy and can weave into psychology.

Speaker B:

And I think that's a lot of what I do without knowing that I.

Speaker B:

Yeah.

Speaker B:

And I suppose if I'd actually taken actual courses on those things, I'd probably be better at it.

Speaker B:

But, you know, here we are.

Speaker B:

So, you know, a little bit of God's grace.

Speaker B:

We'll go with that, and we'll see how that helps.

Speaker B:

I think.

Speaker A:

You know, it's interesting that you say that, because when it comes to, like, philosophy, like all those things, like, like they intersect in many ways.

Speaker B:

Yeah.

Speaker A:

Yet they, they're separate in other ways.

Speaker A:

And so when for me, I ended up what was.

Speaker A:

I was in theater, and then I enjoyed that and I had to take an accounting class and so very different things.

Speaker A:

It was, it was a very different thing.

Speaker A:

So as an.

Speaker A:

I can't remember why I had to take it, but it.

Speaker A:

Obviously I had to take it, so I did well in it.

Speaker A:

And because you either like it or you don't.

Speaker B:

Yeah.

Speaker A:

You're good at it or you're not.

Speaker A:

And so I ended up taking it.

Speaker A:

And I had a conversation with myself and I was like, I like my standard of living.

Speaker A:

And so that's how I ended up switching to accounting.

Speaker A:

But it's weird because now that I'm older, I got burned out from it.

Speaker A:

But now that I'm older, there are skills in accounting that can be used.

Speaker A:

But I'm still, I'm.

Speaker A:

I'm yearning for that theater background that, that degree that I never, that is just never finish, you know, or that.

Speaker B:

I.

Speaker B:

Yeah, I hear that It's.

Speaker B:

And I mean, I can kind of relate because, you know, after I got out of college, most of what I did was tech support it type stuff because that's what I did all through college to work, and I could get jobs that way.

Speaker B:

I couldn't really get a job doing, you know, with a Bachelor of Arts in music, it's not like anyone was going, we need someone to hear this.

Speaker B:

Tell me if this isn't a major or minor key.

Speaker B:

Yeah, pay me 50 bucks an hour and I'm there, you know, something like that.

Speaker B:

But, you know, I did a lot of that.

Speaker B:

And then with some kind of pit stops and very briefly, like working at Radio Shack.

Speaker B:

And very briefly, I was a bankruptcy paralegal, which I really.

Speaker B:

Which seems boring, but in a lot of ways I enjoyed.

Speaker B:

Because people think about when they think bankruptcy, first of all, they think all your money's gone.

Speaker B:

They get that from Wheel of Fortune.

Speaker B:

But when they, when they think bankruptcy, they think like, of people who have failed or whatever.

Speaker B:

And you see these people come in and they act like they think they've failed.

Speaker B:

And you wouldn't believe how many people.

Speaker B:

It was just, they were.

Speaker B:

They were on the, the edge of.

Speaker B:

All they had to do was lose their job and then they didn't get paid.

Speaker B:

And, and it's not like they were, you know, spending money above their station.

Speaker B:

They were doing the best they could in the first place.

Speaker B:

And then that's where they Ended up, or in some cases which I found really fascinating, was people who were like a parent died and gave them like this million dollar house, right.

Speaker B:

But they couldn't pay the taxes on it.

Speaker B:

And it.

Speaker B:

And they couldn't get it sold because it was in a place that was just.

Speaker B:

It was.

Speaker B:

People weren't spending that much money.

Speaker B:

Now where I'm from, it's a lot of nothing.

Speaker B:

So it would be.

Speaker B:

It's great if you have a million dollar home, but if you can't sell that thing and it's hard to sell that thing up there, you know they'd end up in bankruptcy because they couldn't pay the taxes.

Speaker B:

It's really, really interesting how that stuff works.

Speaker B:

And I don't know, I just, I think that might be the first real place that I started having this understanding of compassion for people like where the labels don't necessarily meet the person you're talking to.

Speaker B:

So that, that, that's weird how I'm dovetailing into that, but that's kind of how that worked.

Speaker B:

So anyway, to go back to what you were saying about theater, I totally understand because for me, tech support and computer stuff, I can do it fine.

Speaker B:

I'm pretty good at it.

Speaker B:

But it's especially call centers.

Speaker B:

It's it.

Speaker B:

For me, it was kind of soul sucking and boring.

Speaker B:

And as a creative and as someone who wants to do something more creative with my life and for other people, that was not a good fit.

Speaker B:

But it paid the bills, right?

Speaker B:

Yeah.

Speaker A:

Right.

Speaker A:

And you know, it's really interesting that we're having this conversation because I'm going to segue into something is that it's really interesting how there are quite a bit of jobs and careers out there that pay bills.

Speaker A:

Like if you do like a cpa, if you do, you know, if you do get a cpa, you can make great money.

Speaker A:

I mean, computers.

Speaker A:

I mean, depending upon where you.

Speaker A:

What avenue.

Speaker B:

I mean, where are you and what you're doing?

Speaker A:

Yeah, right.

Speaker A:

You can make great money, but they're so soul sucking.

Speaker B:

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker A:

Many ways.

Speaker A:

So with your journey, because you do many things, you have wrote a book, you do have a YouTube COD.

Speaker A:

God jots music.

Speaker A:

How did you.

Speaker A:

How.

Speaker A:

What was your journey with that?

Speaker B:

Oh boy.

Speaker B:

I'll try to keep this as succinct as I can.

Speaker B:

I'm terrible at keeping things.

Speaker B:

If you've read my stuff or you've seen my stuff, it's like, oh my God, this guy won't shut up.

Speaker A:

Now.

Speaker A:

I do have to say though, your voice is very Nice.

Speaker A:

Like, thank you so much.

Speaker B:

I appreciate it.

Speaker A:

Yeah.

Speaker A:

So I'm doing the six week challenge, and so I can't really watch things.

Speaker A:

And part of the six week challenge is taking all these.

Speaker A:

A lot of steps.

Speaker A:

So, you know, I have the, you know, put on YouTube.

Speaker A:

I have it in my pocket and I.

Speaker A:

I have to say, it's a great walking voice.

Speaker B:

Oh, thank you.

Speaker B:

I'm hoping that more people.

Speaker B:

I, I'm glad that you said that because I'm hoping people will hear you saying that or see you saying that and be like, oh, I need to check out his podcast.

Speaker B:

And, you know, when my book comes out, I'm planning to do an audiobook version of that too.

Speaker B:

And I'm.

Speaker B:

I'm not gonna, like, I think I'm really nasally.

Speaker B:

And particularly this year, it's.

Speaker B:

The allergy's been crazy, so I feel like I'm a hunking goose.

Speaker B:

But I appreciate that a lot.

Speaker B:

Thank you.

Speaker B:

That actually makes my day because I've been feeling kind of like in my nose.

Speaker B:

But yeah, what I.

Speaker B:

For me, the creative journey started out when I was 4, 4 or 5.

Speaker B:

I saw Van Halen's jump on MTV and I saw David Lee Roth jumping around in his Spandex having a great time.

Speaker B:

And I was like, that's what I want to do.

Speaker B:

I want to be a rock star.

Speaker B:

And that hasn't changed, but it's evolved in a way because, you know, growing up, that's all I wanted to do.

Speaker B:

I started playing drums when I was very, very young.

Speaker B:

Was in a sort of pop metal band when I was 16.

Speaker B:

I did that for a couple years and.

Speaker B:

And I got a lot of, like, I got into the Smashing Pumpkins because of that.

Speaker B:

But it was very early on in that sort of experience that I decided I really want to be the singer.

Speaker B:

Like, that's what I always wanted to do.

Speaker B:

I really want to have more.

Speaker B:

A lot of it was to have more involvement in the music because as a drummer and at that age and what they were doing there, I wasn't having a lot of input.

Speaker B:

And that wasn't on them.

Speaker B:

It was just, here's the songs, play the drums to them, and there we go.

Speaker B:

It didn't really have a lot of effect on the music per se.

Speaker B:

I got into bands like you two Smashing Pumpkins, like I said, and.

Speaker B:

And some other ones.

Speaker B:

And the.

Speaker B:

The funny thing was, at the same time, concurrently to this, like, where I grew up with church, church was kind of boring.

Speaker B:

Didn't see anybody smiling.

Speaker B:

And it.

Speaker B:

And it always felt.

Speaker B:

I'm not trying to point a finger at anybody.

Speaker B:

That would be ironic, actually.

Speaker B:

It always felt very judgy.

Speaker B:

And I just.

Speaker B:

To me, I'm not the kind of person when you shame me or judge me or even make me feel like that I'm gonna respond very well.

Speaker B:

I'm not saying that's a right or wrong thing about me, but I think it's a thing that God knew, because I was always very interested in God.

Speaker B:

And so through bands like U2, who I wouldn't really call a Christian band per se, but they do talk about Christian themes.

Speaker B:

They were talking about it in allegories and alliterations and metaphors.

Speaker B:

And I'm like, o, this I can kind of get into, because it forces you to dig a little bit.

Speaker B:

And so then I got into CS Lewis and Mere Christianity and the Screwtape letters and all of that was kind of making things feel more logical and analytical.

Speaker B:

And for me, I'm a very logical, analytical person.

Speaker B:

If I can sort of set a foundation for something, then I can grow from that.

Speaker B:

And I think one of the most important things that C.S.

Speaker B:

lewis said for me was something along the lines of, I'm kind of paraphrasing and I'm probably botching it here, was kind of, if that good has to exist out as a measurement outside of humanity, and if good exists outside of humanity as a measurement, like something we aspire to rather than something we've created, then there has to be something that created that.

Speaker B:

And that once I set on that, I'm like, oh, this.

Speaker B:

This all makes sense now.

Speaker B:

Now I can figure everything else out.

Speaker B:

And so my journey kind of went from there to.

Speaker B:

I didn't.

Speaker B:

I didn't know if I really wanted to be, like, consider myself a Christian or a believer, because the way that it had been taught to me growing up was, oh, it's going to change you and it's going to make you a different person.

Speaker B:

And I'm like.

Speaker B:

I kind of like me.

Speaker B:

I mean, it was 18, 19, of course I liked me, but it wasn't until.

Speaker B:

And I always say, don't laugh, but you can laugh if you want.

Speaker B:

I'm a big pro wrestling fan, and Shawn Michaels was always my guy.

Speaker B:

And so when he.

Speaker B:

For wrestling fans out there, you're going to know this story.

Speaker B:

He.

Speaker B:

He pseudo retired in 98 because he got a back injury.

Speaker B:

He was a real jerk backstage.

Speaker B:

Super talented, just one of my favorites to watch, but he was a real jerk backstage.

Speaker B:

He was gone for four years, started became Born again, Started going to church, believing in Jesus Christ, kind of through his wife.

Speaker B:

Came back, and he was the same, but better.

Speaker B:

And when I saw that, I'm like, okay, now.

Speaker B:

Now everything's starting to make real sense.

Speaker B:

And I'm like, that God's definitely talking to me because he's putting all these things in front of me.

Speaker B:

I said, in retrospect, it's so easy to see.

Speaker B:

I'm like, you put all these things in front of me to bring me closer to you.

Speaker B:

And you did it by speaking to me and understanding me, not by going, do this, do that.

Speaker B:

You just got to know me.

Speaker B:

And once you did that, it all started to come together.

Speaker B:

And I.

Speaker B:

And I think as that went along, you know, my music kept on going.

Speaker B:

I moved to Nashville to do music, had a recording contract within the first few months I was down here, it did not work out.

Speaker B:

It was a very humbling experience.

Speaker B:

But it's the humbling I needed, because up to that point, I just wanted to be a big rock star and have houses and boats.

Speaker B:

And I'm not saying I also want that, but I wanted to mean something.

Speaker B:

After that, I.

Speaker B:

I kind of didn't want to do music for a bit.

Speaker B:

I didn't know if I wanted to.

Speaker B:

It got.

Speaker B:

elevision, and somewhere like:

Speaker B:

And that's kind of where God jots came from.

Speaker B:

And so that all kind of weaves together.

Speaker B:

That was a long version of actually not quite as long a version as I've told it before, but of kind of like, my sort of spiritual and entrepreneurial creative journey.

Speaker B:

And kind of why I think the way I do in terms of the importance of knowing someone, not just going out and, you know, being like, oh, you need to believe this, or you need to believe that.

Speaker B:

It's more about knowing the person, because when you know them, you start to love them and want for them.

Speaker B:

And when you love and want for them, you're gonna.

Speaker B:

You're gonna want for them so much that sometimes it's even counter to your own wants.

Speaker B:

But that's where real compromise happens, because then you're coming to the table saying, what can I do for you?

Speaker B:

Not just what can you do for me?

Speaker B:

And I think that's.

Speaker B:

I think that's kind of the better world I'm trying to create where, like, we can all win to a certain extent, but it comes from doing the work of knowing people.

Speaker B:

Individuals, not groups.

Speaker B:

Because oftentimes groups are.

Speaker B:

First of all, they don't act like individuals act.

Speaker B:

And second of all, they.

Speaker B:

There's too many assumptions about groups.

Speaker B:

You get a person alone and have a conversation with them more often than not.

Speaker B:

I think you're going to be surprised at who they are.

Speaker B:

They're going to.

Speaker B:

They're going to subvert your expectations.

Speaker B:

And I think that's a really terrifying but also wonderful thing about life.

Speaker B:

And just like God subverted my expectations in terms of what I.

Speaker B:

What it turns out, I think it is, if that makes any sense.

Speaker A:

It does.

Speaker A:

It does.

Speaker A:

That's beautiful.

Speaker A:

That wasn't too long.

Speaker A:

That wasn't too bad.

Speaker B:

Well, thank you.

Speaker B:

I appreciate it.

Speaker B:

Put a little disclaimer.

Speaker B:

All right, here we go.

Speaker B:

Like, maybe that's what I need to do.

Speaker B:

I'll do like a video version of just me saying this whole stuff and be.

Speaker B:

Disclaimer.

Speaker A:

Look, Moses was much longer than this.

Speaker B:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker B:

Very true.

Speaker A:

Maybe even David's.

Speaker A:

I don't know.

Speaker B:

Yeah.

Speaker A:

Oh, goodness.

Speaker B:

Ironically, the Book of Joel, which, you know, is my real name.

Speaker B:

The Book of Joel.

Speaker B:

Really short.

Speaker B:

So I don't know, maybe I'm just trying to make up for it.

Speaker A:

Oh, that's beautiful.

Speaker A:

Oh, goodness.

Speaker A:

Every journey is beautiful.

Speaker B:

And it is.

Speaker B:

It is, actually.

Speaker B:

Yes.

Speaker A:

And.

Speaker A:

And it's.

Speaker A:

It's poetic in different ways.

Speaker A:

It's almost like proverbs and psalms.

Speaker A:

Like they.

Speaker A:

They both have, like a different flavor, different rhythm to it, you know?

Speaker B:

Yes.

Speaker A:

Depending upon where it is or where.

Speaker A:

How it lays.

Speaker A:

But with your God jots.

Speaker B:

Yes.

Speaker A:

Where I want to lead next to.

Speaker A:

Where did that name really come from?

Speaker A:

Because I don't think I really.

Speaker A:

Now that I think about it, I don't think I really fully understood where that name and that idea come came from.

Speaker B:

So I read there was a book.

Speaker B:

Excuse me.

Speaker B:

I think it was like 15 years ago or so.

Speaker B:

I was in a Christian bookstore and I saw this book I think was called God's Blogs by Lanny, to know how I believe that's who it is.

Speaker B:

And I opened this book up and I was like, oh, this is so cool.

Speaker B:

This is basically this guy wrote kind of like what God would be writing if he wrote blogs.

Speaker B:

And it was so full of joy, so full of love, and really, really, really hit my sense of humor.

Speaker B:

Because my sense of humor can be a little bit playful, but out there sometimes and weird.

Speaker B:

And it was cool, too, because it would go.

Speaker B:

It would go from these big ideas, but it would also be these small ideas.

Speaker B:

Like I, I watch and play with a soap bubble today.

Speaker B:

Like the soap bubble just blew up in the sink and she just watched it and I watched her and it was wonderful.

Speaker B:

And the, the, the joy, the joy slash disappointment on her face when it popped.

Speaker B:

You know what I mean?

Speaker B:

Like, like that's God looking at it.

Speaker B:

And I went, man, that's so cool.

Speaker B:

I want to write stuff like that.

Speaker B:

But I didn't feel, because I was so still early on in my journey, I didn't feel like I was in a place where I could or should be writing as if I was God.

Speaker B:

And I didn't want to just like rip from that.

Speaker B:

So it was really a lot for me about writing.

Speaker B:

Writing something that, you know, wasn't like these long exegesis or something like that.

Speaker B:

I tried to keep it succinct at the time.

Speaker B:

Now they're a little bit more, they're more like sermons, I guess you could say.

Speaker B:

But yeah, I think the God jots thing came from sort of playing off that idea of God's blogs and, and then it just kind of went from there.

Speaker A:

Yeah, that's nice.

Speaker A:

You know, it's funny because I was talking to a student today and we're kind of coordinating to.

Speaker A:

For her to be on my podcast.

Speaker A:

So.

Speaker B:

Yeah.

Speaker A:

You know, trying to schedule.

Speaker A:

And she watched or listened to another student that I had on Ikira.

Speaker A:

And it's interesting because we sell ourselves way too short, like constantly.

Speaker A:

Because here she is, you know, she's saying, I'm a student, I'm supposed to be an expert at something thing.

Speaker A:

And I don't even think that's what God knows.

Speaker A:

None of us are experts.

Speaker A:

I think the fact that you just started is, is all that he asked for.

Speaker A:

So for it to be named God jots.

Speaker A:

It's, it's very, it's short, simple, to the point, and it's just getting started and in a journey.

Speaker B:

Yeah, yeah, very much.

Speaker B:

And I, and I like how you put that, like so many.

Speaker B:

And I'm guilty of this too.

Speaker B:

So many people kind of sit and go, okay, when I, I need, like when I get to this point where I can.

Speaker A:

Right.

Speaker B:

And it's like, just start.

Speaker B:

You don't need all the resources.

Speaker B:

Just start something.

Speaker B:

Like, even if you don't know how to say podcast, for instance, start podcasting.

Speaker A:

Yeah.

Speaker B:

And if you enjoy it, you're gonna reach out and find the ways to make that work for you.

Speaker B:

You know what I'm saying?

Speaker B:

And I think, I think that's how it was with God jots.

Speaker B:

Like, I love to write.

Speaker B:

I've always loved to write, and I love to read, and I love to just, I don't know, put.

Speaker B:

Put something creative out there.

Speaker B:

So for me, it was a matter of, okay, sit down and write something and see what sparks you.

Speaker B:

And so I can tell you, a lot of times I'll get done writing those things, and I'll be like, where did that come from?

Speaker B:

Like, if I hadn't sat down and just did this, I never would have had those thoughts.

Speaker B:

So a lot of times I'm like, is that coming straight from God?

Speaker B:

Or, like, what am I doing here?

Speaker B:

Like, so again, about to say, like, I don't want to, like, imply that God's going, you know, whispering in my ear, and I'll write this.

Speaker B:

Okay, that's a good one.

Speaker B:

Yeah, I'll do that.

Speaker B:

You know, but I don't know, maybe.

Speaker B:

Maybe we all need to just, in whatever creative endeavor we have.

Speaker B:

Right.

Speaker B:

Think less and do more.

Speaker A:

Yeah.

Speaker B:

And then it's like, improv.

Speaker B:

Life is improv, right?

Speaker A:

Yes.

Speaker B:

Think about it less and do it more.

Speaker B:

I'm.

Speaker B:

I'm actually working with a wrestling organization here in Nashville and.

Speaker B:

And learning as I go how to do, you know, commentating and interviewing.

Speaker B:

And so much of that is in wrestling is too, in general, but so much of that is improv, and I love improv.

Speaker B:

It's terrifying because you don't know when the bottom's gonna fall out, but, you know, that really forces you to be quick on your feet.

Speaker B:

Whereas when you have a script and everything else.

Speaker B:

And that's fine because I was in a sketch comedy trip, too, on memorizing all that and doing the parts and figuring out exactly how I'm gonna do it.

Speaker B:

It's like, yeah, but what if you don't have any of that?

Speaker B:

What if it's just, I need you to talk about this, this, and this.

Speaker B:

Go.

Speaker B:

And.

Speaker B:

Okay, here we go.

Speaker B:

So sometimes I think the most beautiful things come out of the unexpected like that.

Speaker A:

Agreed.

Speaker A:

I think every adult should do improv once in their life.

Speaker B:

Yes.

Speaker A:

And improv is an adult playground.

Speaker A:

And it just.

Speaker A:

I think I've learned quite a bit about myself in improv than just in real life situations.

Speaker A:

And I think part of it is, is anything goes.

Speaker A:

So there's no hard feelings.

Speaker A:

We're all here just playing around.

Speaker B:

Yeah.

Speaker A:

So you're stand outside of yourself.

Speaker A:

Right.

Speaker A:

There's no, you know, you're lifting, like, judgment and all those other negative words.

Speaker A:

Then as you're going you are learning.

Speaker A:

Because I remember I did this one take, and a lady was like, it doesn't need to be perfect.

Speaker A:

And I was like, what do you.

Speaker A:

I just looked at her because the director lady, I was like, what are you talking about?

Speaker A:

Yes, it does.

Speaker A:

But.

Speaker A:

But then at that moment, I remember the scene too.

Speaker A:

And the scene was, I was a mom and my child was coming out, and they came out, and I was like, no, you're not.

Speaker A:

And Lydia's like, it doesn't need to be perfect.

Speaker A:

And I was just like.

Speaker A:

But at that moment, I not only learned about myself, but it was like, why.

Speaker A:

Why did I say it like that way?

Speaker A:

Why.

Speaker A:

Why.

Speaker A:

Why did I act that way?

Speaker A:

And it was kind of like, okay, well, grew up in a conservative household.

Speaker A:

You know, my parents.

Speaker A:

These were the rules.

Speaker A:

And so I'm acting as like my parents in.

Speaker A:

In this setting.

Speaker A:

So you really improv?

Speaker A:

I think every adult should do improv.

Speaker B:

There's a kind of therapy in that too, you know, and getting to explore.

Speaker B:

Getting to explore different facets of your personality without knowing that those were there to begin with.

Speaker A:

Right.

Speaker B:

It's a lot of fun.

Speaker B:

Like, I can't.

Speaker B:

I think this had to been quite a few years ago.

Speaker B:

I did some kind of improv where I played a bully, which was interesting because I was bullied growing up.

Speaker B:

So to play a bully was like, whoa.

Speaker B:

It.

Speaker B:

Not that I understood the bully experience, but to have to force myself to act like one almost made me get it in a way.

Speaker A:

Yeah.

Speaker B:

Without actually having the experience.

Speaker B:

So, you know, it's like what they say, hurt people, hurt people.

Speaker B:

So channeling some of that and, and doing it was a cathartic.

Speaker B:

Because I think in a way, I.

Speaker B:

I needed to do something that was mean, if that makes any sense, without actually there being any consequences to it and without actually being a bad guy.

Speaker B:

That's one of the things I love about, you know, doing wrestling too.

Speaker B:

But, yeah, it.

Speaker B:

It.

Speaker B:

It forces you to maybe see the world in this completely different way that's.

Speaker B:

That's moving and you're kind of swimming in it.

Speaker B:

And.

Speaker B:

And I love that whole idea of the yes and.

Speaker B:

And the yes and when something introduced to the scene, you must accept it as existing in the scene, and what do you do with that?

Speaker B:

You can't deny it.

Speaker B:

You can't ignore it.

Speaker A:

Right.

Speaker B:

You can't say, no.

Speaker B:

That's not what we just did.

Speaker B:

You know, you have to go, yes, we do.

Speaker B:

And I think that also forces you, in a strange way, to deal with consequence.

Speaker B:

And what do you do with those consequences.

Speaker B:

And how do you, how do you move with the flow of the world?

Speaker B:

Now I want to go back and do improv again.

Speaker A:

Yeah, I do too.

Speaker A:

And you know what?

Speaker A:

Now, now think about it.

Speaker A:

Like, she didn't say it was.

Speaker A:

Now that I think about it as we talk through it, she didn't say, why did you not accept them being gay?

Speaker A:

It was like, it doesn't have to be perfect.

Speaker A:

And I think that really hit a chord in a way, because I think she knew me, who I was.

Speaker A:

But I, I, I, I wanted it to be a certain way because that's what it was.

Speaker A:

So I, I find I'll never forget her words and, and that really, that really stopped me.

Speaker A:

And I still think about it to this day.

Speaker A:

She's like, it doesn't have to be perfect.

Speaker A:

I was like, what, what, what, what?

Speaker B:

Fake it till you make it anyway, you know, and if you're applying yourself and you mean it, like, and always giving your 100 to that, faking it.

Speaker A:

Yeah.

Speaker B:

I think you a learn quicker because I'll be honest with you, so much of what I've done, like, you know, I know how to edit film, I know how to, you know, work cameras.

Speaker B:

I know how to, I know how to do just about anything behind the scenes and in front of the camera of any kind of, like, film or TV production for the most part.

Speaker B:

Yeah, because I've done them, but I had no training in them.

Speaker B:

I got a BA in music from a liberal arts school.

Speaker B:

Computer stuff didn't have training in them.

Speaker B:

I figured it out doing logos, doing the art I do, making these T shirts, everything else, like, all my merch, like, I just make it up as I go and, But I apply myself 100 to those things.

Speaker B:

So I go, well, I'm gonna make a T shirt, right?

Speaker B:

And I have no idea how to do that.

Speaker B:

But I'm not gonna half ass it, you know?

Speaker B:

Yeah, I'm gonna 100 it.

Speaker B:

And if I, if I fail doing that, it's a lot easier to see where the failure point was because I was giving my all to it.

Speaker B:

If I only get 50%, well, first of all, I got to figure out if that failure point was in that 50% or if it was in the other 50 I didn't do.

Speaker B:

And what was that?

Speaker B:

You know, like, what could that have been?

Speaker B:

So if you, if you put everything into something, it's a lot easier to see why you might have failed at it if you failed.

Speaker B:

And chances are, if you're figuring it out and Faking it till you make it, you're going to fail for a while, so.

Speaker B:

Or fail forward, as they say, I guess.

Speaker A:

But you know what?

Speaker A:

Sometimes, you know, with failure is a negative connotation because there are things that I've done that I failed in and it may have cost a lot of money, but in a way I can say at least.

Speaker A:

At least I.

Speaker A:

At least I tried.

Speaker B:

Yeah.

Speaker B:

Like honestly, failure.

Speaker B:

Failure is you chipping off another piece of the block to make David.

Speaker A:

Yeah.

Speaker B:

You know, it, it.

Speaker B:

You can't make David.

Speaker B:

Nobody has success.

Speaker B:

Well, this doesn't work that way.

Speaker B:

And if you, if you do, then I don't think you are humbled enough to serve your community or, or.

Speaker B:

Or do it for the right reasons or, or, you know, use the results of that for the right reasons.

Speaker B:

I'm not one to judge, really, because I.

Speaker B:

I haven't actually.

Speaker B:

My David's not done.

Speaker B:

I'm.

Speaker B:

I've maybe got part of an arm, a lot more to go, so we'll see what happens when I get there.

Speaker A:

You're further along with me.

Speaker A:

I'm struggling on the fingers.

Speaker B:

Don't start on the fingers.

Speaker B:

That's the hardest part.

Speaker B:

Start on a leg or something.

Speaker B:

Whatever.

Speaker B:

You go on the fingers.

Speaker A:

Wrong spot.

Speaker B:

Start the wrong block of stone.

Speaker B:

Yeah.

Speaker B:

Or maybe.

Speaker B:

Maybe it's not a bad thing.

Speaker B:

Maybe you actually figured something out.

Speaker B:

Start with the hard thing first because then you don't want to get all of David done and be down to the fingers and be like, I know, I know, you're off.

Speaker B:

I gotta start over.

Speaker A:

That's probably why I started on the fingers, I'm sure.

Speaker B:

No, you were.

Speaker B:

See, you were thinking.

Speaker B:

You were thinking.

Speaker B:

Give yourself some credit.

Speaker A:

I can't.

Speaker A:

I can't get to the show.

Speaker B:

We thought you had a carved date.

Speaker A:

Can't get to the arm and shoulders.

Speaker A:

I'm too short.

Speaker A:

Oh.

Speaker A:

So with your book, God Jots.

Speaker B:

Yeah.

Speaker A:

When?

Speaker A:

Let's talk about your book.

Speaker B:

Yeah, sure.

Speaker B:

Yeah, it's.

Speaker B:

It's called God Jots Forgive.

Speaker A:

It's a beautiful cover.

Speaker A:

I like purple.

Speaker A:

So biased.

Speaker B:

Yeah, it's called Forgiveness and Healing.

Speaker B:

How to Seek, Offer and Understand the Power of Forgiveness.

Speaker B:

Honestly, this was not what I was going to do as my first God Jots book.

Speaker B:

I was going to do like some sort of an anthology of the stuff I'd already put out on blogs with some extra things.

Speaker B:

But I was kind of doing.

Speaker B:

I think it was a year ago, looking over, what are people actually searching to get to my site?

Speaker B:

What are people landing on and what Are they spending time on.

Speaker B:

And there were actually a couple blogs there about forgiveness.

Speaker B:

And I thought maybe I should write a book about forgiveness.

Speaker B:

And then, just as it always does, it wasn't meant to be 300 and something pages.

Speaker B:

It was going to be maybe a hundred.

Speaker B:

And then as I usually do, it just, you know, mushroomed and turned into what it did.

Speaker B:

But the, the cool thing is it's.

Speaker B:

It's kind of a.

Speaker B:

It talks about why forgiveness is important.

Speaker B:

It talks about the power of.

Speaker A:

Talks.

Speaker B:

It does use some scripture to go into it.

Speaker B:

I don't use scripture a lot in a lot of the things that I do because I kind of want to.

Speaker B:

I kind of want to try and feel it, if that makes any more sense.

Speaker A:

It does, it does.

Speaker B:

But I really wanted to get to a place where we can talk about.

Speaker B:

I think a lot of it was influenced.

Speaker B:

I didn't talk about this a lot in the book, per se.

Speaker B:

I do mention it a few times, but we're definitely at this place, it feels like, where the world is so divided.

Speaker B:

People are so angry with each other.

Speaker B:

So much of that is, you know, what they're being told to think and what they're being told to, how they're being told to react.

Speaker B:

And I'm.

Speaker B:

I'm not talking about one side or the other.

Speaker B:

It's mainly both sides and, and people being kind of controlled by these powers that are.

Speaker B:

That are much larger and stronger than them.

Speaker B:

And kind of going back to like what I was talking about before, getting to know individuals.

Speaker B:

I think the only thing, the only way forward isn't just.

Speaker B:

It's not just compassion.

Speaker B:

It's forgiveness.

Speaker B:

It's.

Speaker B:

And trying to find a way to look at it in a way to say, you know, so much of what we do is I need you to apologize to me first or I need to be right and you need to be wrong and you need to come to me with open arms apologizing.

Speaker B:

I'm like, well, what if we did it the other way around?

Speaker B:

What if we said, hey, I forgive you and see what happens then?

Speaker B:

And I kind of put that a little bit along with Jesus too, where it was like, hey, I'm going to offer you grace.

Speaker B:

I'm gonna give you.

Speaker B:

I'm gonna give you this.

Speaker B:

All you have to do is accept it.

Speaker B:

And, you know, the offer of it came first.

Speaker B:

Not the person coming up and asking forgiveness.

Speaker B:

It was the offer of forgiveness that came first.

Speaker B:

And I'm like, okay, what, what kind of a world does that look like?

Speaker B:

If we all started with that rather than waiting for someone to come to the apology.

Speaker B:

And I don't, I don't get deep into the larger version of that.

Speaker B:

You know, that's, that's more community and national.

Speaker B:

I do talk about that.

Speaker B:

I really wanted to get to some place where I could say, you know, we all struggle, we all go through things that are very difficult and hard.

Speaker B:

And so much of what people experience is, is really, it's one way or another.

Speaker B:

It's about a perceived survival.

Speaker B:

And it could be real survival.

Speaker B:

It could be I got to pay my bills, I got to get food.

Speaker B:

Or it could be a sort of perceived survival where they.

Speaker B:

You think you're going to lose everything or you think you're about to lose your job or, or whatever, or if you lose your job.

Speaker B:

So I know how that feels like recently, where what you think that's going to mean to your, to your existence, and you've got kids and got a family, you got a mortgage and everything else you got to do.

Speaker B:

How are you going to get through it?

Speaker B:

I think so much of how we behave is, is based on that.

Speaker A:

And.

Speaker B:

I, I think the more we try and understand other people through those lenses, the easier it is to see why they behave a certain way and the easier it is to.

Speaker B:

To forgive them for behaving that way.

Speaker B:

It doesn't mean you forget.

Speaker B:

It doesn't mean you become a.

Speaker B:

A doormat.

Speaker B:

It just means how can we come together in a way that's less fraught with tension and more open?

Speaker B:

And this, this book is.

Speaker B:

It talks more about individual kind of forgiveness.

Speaker B:

You know, a friend something to you and what do you do about it?

Speaker B:

Or maybe a stranger did something to you and what do you do about it?

Speaker B:

Or maybe you're the stranger or the friend that did something.

Speaker B:

How do you apologize?

Speaker B:

So it talks about that power, it talks about why it's important, but it also, I think half the book is examples of, and suggestions on how you can apologize.

Speaker B:

Some simple ones and some much more elaborate ones, and how you forgive some simple ones and some elaborate ones and just.

Speaker B:

Just trying to find a way that we can all kind of come together and strengthen our power together and also see each other for something apart from what we've been told to think they are.

Speaker B:

You know, subvert our expectations.

Speaker B:

And I always say at the end of my podcast, I always say, be honest with yourself, be truthful with others, give people the opportunity to surprise you.

Speaker B:

And even when someone's wronged you, I think that's still act.

Speaker B:

So, yeah, it's kind of where I.

Speaker B:

That's kind of where I go with that and kind of what the book is about.

Speaker A:

Yeah, I think that's, that's my brain just went flat.

Speaker A:

It's like.

Speaker B:

All the time.

Speaker A:

The thought is there.

Speaker A:

But in, in theater they teach you and also like public speaking, edits speak.

Speaker A:

And so I thought.

Speaker A:

And then, yeah, the edit was happening and it just like when you said before with the reason why because people were landing on that mostly.

Speaker A:

That was really one of the first videos that I saw because I was just like, oh.

Speaker A:

Because I was like scrolling.

Speaker A:

I was like, forgiveness.

Speaker A:

It just wasn't even a thought at the time.

Speaker A:

It was just like, let's just choose this one.

Speaker A:

I, I do agree with that.

Speaker A:

I also like how you said there's not a lot of scripture.

Speaker A:

And I think that forgiveness is quite interesting subject.

Speaker A:

I think out of all of the concepts of that is a word that scripture tries to teach us.

Speaker A:

I feel, and I could be completely wrong.

Speaker A:

Forgiveness is one of the keys to resolve a lot of problems that we have outside of grace and mercy.

Speaker A:

And when it comes to.

Speaker A:

Interesting too, because when you get scripture in there, sometimes people shut down, you know.

Speaker B:

Yeah.

Speaker B:

And I even do too.

Speaker B:

Like that's part of what pushed me away is like focusing too much on scripture, I think.

Speaker B:

I'm not saying it's a bad thing.

Speaker B:

You got to have a basis of some sort.

Speaker A:

Right.

Speaker B:

But I think sometimes if you focus too much on scripture and I mean, I've seen this everywhere, you can make it mean anything you want, depending on how good you are at that.

Speaker B:

And I suppose I've probably done some of that myself.

Speaker B:

I'm a human being probably.

Speaker B:

But for me, I kind of look at it like my whole basis for everything I really do when it comes to God jots.

Speaker B:

And in my, you know, aspiring compassionist and everything, I focus on compassion because for me it's kind of multi.

Speaker B:

Tiered.

Speaker B:

A lot of people say God knows you because he loves you.

Speaker B:

And I kind of like, well, what if it's he loves you because he knows you?

Speaker B:

And if that's the case, shouldn't we all try and know each other?

Speaker B:

None of us can know each other like God knows us, but shouldn't we all try and aspire to that, knowing each other like God knows us?

Speaker A:

Yeah.

Speaker B:

And I also kind of look at it like God is love, Jesus is compassion, the Holy Spirit is joy.

Speaker B:

So if Jesus is compassion, then one of the biggest things, the two big things he said was loving the Lord your God with your whole heart and loving your neighbor as yourself, that second part of that, I feel, is huge, because if you can really, truly love your neighbor as yourself, kind of as C.S.

Speaker B:

lewis put it, you know, they.

Speaker B:

They are you.

Speaker B:

They are your arm, your leg.

Speaker B:

You know, when.

Speaker B:

When they screw up, it's your arm screwing up.

Speaker B:

How do you treat that?

Speaker B:

And, you know, you may be mad at yourself when you screw up for a little bit, but you eventually do forgive yourself.

Speaker B:

You make excuses for yourself.

Speaker B:

You.

Speaker B:

You.

Speaker B:

You even go, well, that's not what I meant to yourself.

Speaker B:

Why don't you do that for somebody else?

Speaker B:

And the other part is when he was on the cross, being nailed to the cross, and he said about the people nailing him to the cross, forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do.

Speaker B:

And I feel like, wow, that's so much of.

Speaker B:

Of what we do.

Speaker B:

And why I was talking about survival and struggle is I.

Speaker B:

I don't want to give everyone a pass and say it's out of their control, but there is an aspect of that that is.

Speaker B:

And I think the more compassionate we are towards that and that experience and that story and that struggle, the.

Speaker B:

The more we learn not just about them, but about ourselves.

Speaker B:

I learned a lot about myself, a ton, just from talking to other people.

Speaker B:

I mean, even just talking to you, I'm like, oh, I didn't really think about that.

Speaker B:

You know, kind of like improv.

Speaker B:

So those two things are kind of the basic two things for me is that greatest commandment and.

Speaker B:

And what he said on the cross.

Speaker B:

And you.

Speaker B:

We can bring a million different pieces of scripture into it if we want, but that's kind of where I form my basis.

Speaker B:

And I say, well, if I can, if I've got that part right, like, somebody could come to me and say, you've got that wrong.

Speaker B:

So everything else you're doing is wrong.

Speaker B:

Okay, fine.

Speaker B:

But if I've got that part right, that then my analytical and logical brain kind of goes from there and what to do next.

Speaker B:

And it's funny, the further and further and deeper and deeper I go, and the more I build on those building blocks, it's really strange how.

Speaker B:

How much easier it's become when someone does or says something that I go, oh, gosh, that ain't right.

Speaker B:

You know what I'm saying?

Speaker B:

Like, whereas maybe 10 years ago I would have been like, let's figure out if this is right or not.

Speaker B:

No, that's not right.

Speaker B:

I don't like, not in the biblical sense.

Speaker B:

I just mean that's not Right.

Speaker B:

That you did that.

Speaker B:

You know, from an ethical standpoint, maybe, but it's all based on those building blocks.

Speaker B:

So that's.

Speaker B:

That's kind of what I do, and that's kind of what I'm trying to do with forgiveness.

Speaker B:

And yeah, I do.

Speaker B:

I do bring up some scripture.

Speaker B:

But I try very hard, especially when I get into the stuff about how to do it.

Speaker B:

I try and stay away from that and make it more about the experience of what you're providing to that other person.

Speaker B:

Like, a lot of that, I'm trying to let it speak for itself and, and in particular for me, it's a lot, because, like, we were talking about earlier when people would come at me with scripture, scripture, waggy finger and everything else, it's like, well, now, because right or wrong, that's what.

Speaker B:

Who I am.

Speaker B:

And I want to reach people who are probably a lot like me, who are like, I am interested.

Speaker B:

Like, I.

Speaker B:

I really want to know more.

Speaker B:

But every time I look in the church window, it's people being like.

Speaker B:

Like that.

Speaker B:

You know, it's like, I get it.

Speaker B:

We need to be reverent.

Speaker B:

It's.

Speaker B:

It's very important.

Speaker B:

Someone sacrificed them, so not just someone, but God sacrificed a part of himself for us.

Speaker B:

That's a big deal.

Speaker B:

But if there's no joy coming from that, then what was the point?

Speaker B:

And.

Speaker B:

And I think that's sometimes, I mean, I.

Speaker B:

I go to an Episcopal church, and I love my church church, but, man, I don't see people smiling enough.

Speaker B:

And maybe.

Speaker B:

Maybe that's partly on me.

Speaker B:

Maybe I need to be going in there being.

Speaker B:

Being a half the time and screwing up sometimes and maybe embarrassing myself even to get people to laugh.

Speaker B:

But that's.

Speaker B:

That's kind of how I see it.

Speaker B:

Like, there needs to be more joy in the world in general.

Speaker B:

And I think if.

Speaker B:

If we as.

Speaker B:

As people who call ourselves Christians can be bringing that joy and wagging our finger less.

Speaker A:

Yeah.

Speaker B:

I'm not saying.

Speaker B:

I'm not saying that means ignore what we.

Speaker B:

What we believe in terms of eternity and everything else.

Speaker B:

I'm just saying we got to start in a different place because I think the message is getting way lost.

Speaker A:

Yeah.

Speaker B:

And that's on us to fix.

Speaker A:

Yeah, Agreed.

Speaker A:

Agree.

Speaker B:

I don't know why I went down that rabbit hole, but.

Speaker A:

Hey, hey.

Speaker B:

Swimming rabbit hole, apparently that I'm swimming in.

Speaker B:

Put them together and what do we got?

Speaker A:

You know, it's interesting that you talk about church because praise and worship.

Speaker A:

Because I.

Speaker A:

I was a church hopper and I actually enjoyed church.

Speaker A:

Hopping.

Speaker B:

That's interesting.

Speaker A:

People watching.

Speaker B:

Yeah, but you can see, you can, you can get it from so many different angles if you do that.

Speaker B:

And I can't.

Speaker B:

You say that.

Speaker B:

I kind of want to do that, but I always feel weird going into a church as a stranger.

Speaker B:

It's like I almost feel like maybe I need to get a little notoriety first before I walk into one.

Speaker B:

So someone go like, oh, hey, Andrew Bowen's here.

Speaker B:

And I'll be like, hey, yes, under Bowen is here.

Speaker B:

I'm kidding.

Speaker B:

But I do always.

Speaker B:

I've always felt like this whenever I walk into a group of people, people that I.

Speaker B:

That I don't know, and I'm the stranger and it's very human and normal thing.

Speaker B:

Or I just walk in and I'm kind of like, I belong and being like, when can I be myself?

Speaker B:

And that's almost like I.

Speaker B:

We tell our daughter this all the time.

Speaker B:

Our daughter, I don't know how she's like this because my wife and I are both very, you know, once we're comfortable, we're very extroverted.

Speaker B:

We're.

Speaker B:

We're very similar in that way.

Speaker B:

But when, when we first start out, we're very kind of quiet into ourselves.

Speaker B:

We have this awkward social tension that we have.

Speaker B:

My daughter, none of that.

Speaker B:

She walks into a room, she goes, this is my room now.

Speaker B:

You can all come hang out.

Speaker B:

We can start partying.

Speaker B:

It's great.

Speaker B:

And I'm like, where did you get that from?

Speaker B:

Like, can I.

Speaker B:

I really admire that you're able to do that.

Speaker B:

Can I have some of that, please?

Speaker B:

Because room tensed up like crazy and I need to stop doing that, honestly.

Speaker B:

Maybe, maybe that's a test.

Speaker B:

Go to a church hop and see how many of these churches you can talk to.

Speaker A:

Because church hopping, you, you learn about the congregation because you're not, you're not in it, you know, you're not.

Speaker A:

You don't have anything in it.

Speaker A:

So you can really just be a wallflower and just witness how people praise and worship.

Speaker A:

Greeting.

Speaker A:

I remember when I was walking in the greeter because I.

Speaker A:

With this one, I was actually invited.

Speaker A:

A kid was getting baptized and so I was invited.

Speaker A:

And I didn't come with the family.

Speaker A:

I was just separate, you know.

Speaker B:

Gotcha.

Speaker B:

Okay.

Speaker A:

It's.

Speaker A:

So the greeter was.

Speaker A:

I could literally see his wheels turning, like, oh my God, this is a new person.

Speaker A:

What should I do?

Speaker A:

And I was like, hi.

Speaker B:

Let me help you.

Speaker B:

Let me help you.

Speaker A:

Let me teach you what your job is as a greeter.

Speaker B:

Yeah.

Speaker A:

Hi.

Speaker A:

Like welcome to such and such church.

Speaker A:

So and then praise and worship was very interesting.

Speaker A:

Like everybody like it was praise and worship but the people on stage didn't look like they wanted to be there.

Speaker A:

You know the people didn't look like they wanted to be there.

Speaker B:

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker A:

It was just very.

Speaker A:

It just felt like people were there just to check a box.

Speaker A:

Like I'm here, I'm checking the box that I came to church and the more involved I felt was.

Speaker A:

And he was a associate pastor because the pastor pastor was probably was had other engagement but he was more of what a stereotypical church going person should be, you know because he, he could see it.

Speaker A:

And so after the sermon he was like hey.

Speaker A:

And I mean he was better than the greeter, he was better than the people around.

Speaker A:

And so it sometimes is very interesting when you church hop if you ever do.

Speaker A:

Well now I think how people just move with.

Speaker A:

Within a space and so when you're talking about how you can be better sometimes it just is that spark in order to help people, you know, to be able to move within their.

Speaker A:

The house of God.

Speaker B:

Kind of just jump in.

Speaker A:

Yeah.

Speaker A:

Be just like your daughter, you know.

Speaker A:

Hey, it's a party.

Speaker B:

I feel weird doing that in the church though.

Speaker B:

Hey.

Speaker A:

Just put that baby on stage.

Speaker A:

She is gonna union.

Speaker B:

Yeah.

Speaker B:

What does he think he's doing?

Speaker B:

Yeah, I don't know.

Speaker A:

Just put her on stage.

Speaker A:

She is gonna take care of the rest and people are just gonna follow because there's something about a child that's so magical.

Speaker B:

You know there's just like in our, in our wonder and everything else.

Speaker B:

Like.

Speaker B:

Yeah, it doesn't mean, doesn't mean be, you know, immature.

Speaker B:

It means right find, find the wow in the world and bring that into every room you bring in.

Speaker B:

That's, that's why I'm always like, you know, be the light, be the, be the thing that brightens up the room.

Speaker A:

Yeah.

Speaker B:

You know, change.

Speaker B:

I always talk about like, you know, when I was younger and I was very, I'm very idealistic now I suppose.

Speaker B:

Just more realistic about my idealism.

Speaker B:

You know, I wanted to change the world and I, I think when 911 happened I realized it ain't going to be that simple.

Speaker B:

It's a lot more complicated than I thought.

Speaker B:

You have this idealized teenage way of, of looking at.

Speaker B:

Oh well all you need to do is bring these people flowers and show them how much you love them and it'll be fine.

Speaker B:

No, not usually.

Speaker B:

So, you know, it made me kind of think more about well okay, maybe That's a lot for one person to try and do.

Speaker B:

What can I do do?

Speaker B:

And so I always talk about, like, the.

Speaker B:

Even the word jot sounds small, right?

Speaker B:

It's like a little thing you put down.

Speaker B:

Everything I do is kind of designed in a sense, like a mute song is five minutes long.

Speaker B:

My.

Speaker B:

My blogs are maybe more like ten minutes long.

Speaker B:

My podcasts more like ten.

Speaker B:

But I.

Speaker B:

I kind of look at it like, maybe I can't change the world, maybe I can't change your day, but I can.

Speaker B:

Maybe I can change your next five minutes.

Speaker B:

That's something that's a lot more, like, realistic for any human being to do.

Speaker B:

And if I can change your.

Speaker B:

Your five minutes, I can change your next five minutes and your next five minutes do more.

Speaker B:

Five minutes of it.

Speaker B:

And maybe that next five minutes, like, I made you smile.

Speaker B:

I do this thing.

Speaker B:

I haven't done it yet this spring because the allergies have been crazy, but I like to take a walk in my neighborhood.

Speaker A:

Yeah.

Speaker B:

Listen to music while I'm doing it.

Speaker B:

And I like to dance.

Speaker B:

So after maybe five minutes, if there's a really good beat or a good song, I'm listening to, like, some Janet Jackson or something.

Speaker B:

Like some really good, like, swing.

Speaker A:

Yeah.

Speaker B:

Starts moving.

Speaker B:

And I call them dance walks.

Speaker B:

And so people will be driving by in the morning, on to work.

Speaker B:

And they'll see me dance, walking.

Speaker B:

They'll start chuckling.

Speaker B:

I can see them.

Speaker B:

I'm like, I just changed that person's day.

Speaker A:

Yeah.

Speaker B:

Work being a little bit more bubbly, maybe.

Speaker B:

Maybe not hating it so much.

Speaker B:

Maybe.

Speaker B:

And who knows how many other people's days that's going to change.

Speaker A:

Yeah.

Speaker B:

Because they came in with.

Speaker B:

With at least a slightly higher, more positive, brighter feeling to the day because that made them laugh while they drive by in the car.

Speaker B:

And maybe it was a little bit embarrassing, maybe not, but I'm kind of.

Speaker B:

I'm willing to embarrass myself a little bit to.

Speaker B:

To get a good laugh out of something, someone.

Speaker A:

Oh, that's beautiful.

Speaker A:

You are a parent.

Speaker A:

Look at you.

Speaker B:

Yes.

Speaker A:

You.

Speaker A:

You are a parent.

Speaker A:

That is a prerequisite as a parent, that we can embarrass ourselves and feel good about it.

Speaker B:

Yes.

Speaker B:

Yes, I have.

Speaker B:

So I look at it like this.

Speaker B:

I embarrass myself so easily, I have no choice but to try and feel good about it.

Speaker B:

Otherwise, it's gonna be a lot of ho hum and misery, and I don't need that in my life.

Speaker B:

Nobody needs that.

Speaker A:

I remember I did something to my daughter and I was like, I'm gonna embarrass you.

Speaker A:

And I can't remember what it was.

Speaker A:

And my daughter was like, why?

Speaker A:

That's what.

Speaker A:

That's what, as a parent, I should do.

Speaker A:

I am comfortable within myself.

Speaker B:

Yep.

Speaker A:

To create this.

Speaker A:

To create this feeling within you.

Speaker B:

Well, hey, we just did.

Speaker B:

My daughter just got into middle school.

Speaker B:

The cheerleading team on the middle school that she's going into.

Speaker B:

And one of the things they had to do is a.

Speaker B:

Oh, my God, my brain's not working.

Speaker B:

I have afternoon brain fundraiser, where it's not one of those where you go around selling stuff to raise money, like, you know, like Girl Scouts or whatever else.

Speaker B:

It's like you.

Speaker B:

You basically get someone to buy a day on a calendar.

Speaker B:

Let's say it's May 5th.

Speaker B:

So they buy that day, they pay you $5.

Speaker B:

If it's.

Speaker B:

It's the 27th, they pay you 27.

Speaker B:

But they don't get anything out of it.

Speaker B:

And we're like, no, we hate those.

Speaker B:

So we're like, we need to make it mean something.

Speaker B:

So we were like, if we can get the first week filled, then shoot.

Speaker B:

I can't remember what we decided that was.

Speaker B:

It was something simple.

Speaker B:

If we get the second week filmed, my wife has to do karaoke to Taylor Swift song.

Speaker B:

She hates Taylor Swift, so she had to do that live.

Speaker B:

And so she did.

Speaker B:

And I hate slime.

Speaker B:

So if we fill the third week, I get slimed.

Speaker B:

And I did.

Speaker B:

And it was awful.

Speaker B:

And.

Speaker B:

And the fourth one, though, I think it was fulfilling the whole calendar.

Speaker B:

We filled the whole calendar in a week.

Speaker B:

And because people just love this idea, we're going to.

Speaker B:

Our daughter is going to dress myself and my wife up, and then we're gonna have to walk around in public and film it all dressed up.

Speaker B:

And I'm like, here we go.

Speaker B:

It's gonna be fun.

Speaker B:

So we're doing that.

Speaker B:

But, yeah, so it's.

Speaker B:

It's.

Speaker B:

I'm.

Speaker B:

I'm totally willing to be embarrassed and have some fun with it.

Speaker B:

I think a little bit of it is.

Speaker B:

Is I like being the center of attention.

Speaker B:

And maybe that's.

Speaker B:

Yeah.

Speaker B:

But I mean, when you're creative, that kind of goes with the territory.

Speaker B:

I think if.

Speaker B:

If you're not comfortable with being the center of attention.

Speaker A:

Yeah.

Speaker A:

Yeah.

Speaker B:

You're not.

Speaker B:

Not going to be able to be.

Speaker B:

It's hard to be creative.

Speaker B:

Especially creative that's like, on camera or whatever else.

Speaker B:

And I love being on camera.

Speaker B:

It's.

Speaker B:

I don't know as I've ever really frozen up on camera before.

Speaker B:

I've.

Speaker B:

I've had trouble sometimes figuring out what to do, like, within, but I've never been, like, you know, freaking out about the camera being in front of me.

Speaker A:

Yeah.

Speaker B:

Hey.

Speaker A:

But you know what?

Speaker A:

To bring it back.

Speaker A:

But to bring it back.

Speaker B:

Yeah.

Speaker A:

When.

Speaker A:

When we talk about this, it's almost like forgiveness is another way of stepping out of your boundary.

Speaker A:

And in the end, I mean, we're.

Speaker A:

I mean, we're talking about being silly with our children.

Speaker A:

Even though what we're doing is in the beginning, we feel is not a good thing, but in the end, what we do is for our children, and it's a good thing.

Speaker B:

Yeah.

Speaker A:

And.

Speaker A:

And with that, it's going to be a memory.

Speaker A:

It's going to be gross.

Speaker A:

I am sure your daughter is going to be a powerful, powerful.

Speaker A:

I'm trying to think of the word loudspeaker for God, you know, for her to be all.

Speaker A:

For her to be as open as she is, as confident as she is.

Speaker A:

I'm sure you and your partner, your wife, are gonna just instill that in her and she's just gonna be a loudspeaker.

Speaker A:

And nobody is.

Speaker A:

Is all people can do is just stop and.

Speaker A:

And listen.

Speaker A:

And in the end, with.

Speaker A:

With for togiveness as well, it is like this odd feeling.

Speaker A:

But in the end, it benefits not only for you, for your family, the community, however, that forgiveness moves forward.

Speaker B:

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B:

And yes, it really is about, you know, so much of.

Speaker B:

It is not so much setting aside differences.

Speaker B:

Because when you talk about compassion, at least for me, it's also about talking about them.

Speaker B:

Them.

Speaker B:

Yes, but you've gotta.

Speaker B:

You've got to have that basis where you.

Speaker B:

Where you can move forward.

Speaker B:

So, like, I talk about compassion in a sense of, like, really doing the work of knowing someone and then loving and so on.

Speaker B:

But I think forgiveness is.

Speaker B:

In a.

Speaker B:

In a way, I see forgiveness as maybe one of the tools in which you apply that idea of compassion.

Speaker B:

There's so many different ways you can do it.

Speaker B:

I think forgiveness is one of those ways to start.

Speaker B:

I mean, shoot, you could.

Speaker B:

You could even have.

Speaker B:

Maybe nobody's transgressed against you, but you can come to them with that kind of same living, open heart where you're like, you know, whatever's about to happen next, and then in the next 15 minutes when we talk, and maybe I'm gonna say something ridiculous.

Speaker B:

Maybe you are.

Speaker B:

Who knows?

Speaker B:

But I forgive you.

Speaker B:

Let's go from there.

Speaker B:

Like, let's not worry about that.

Speaker B:

Let's have honest Discussion.

Speaker B:

And that's kind of what I mean too.

Speaker B:

When you, when you, when your forgiveness forward, rather than, you know, waiting for a reason to, I think that makes you more open to be your real, true self because then you're not worried about what maybe someone from across the country might say something that could potentially offend me.

Speaker B:

Maybe I could say something that could potentially offend them.

Speaker B:

But if we forgive each other, that right at the beginning, let's just have the conversation and let's, let's see what that brings about.

Speaker B:

Let's see what we learn from each other and, and walk away from it, you know, maybe more enlightened people, you know, and I, that's kind of the world I'm trying to create.

Speaker B:

And I think forgiveness is definitely a key to it.

Speaker A:

Agreed.

Speaker A:

I agree.

Speaker A:

Where can they find your book?

Speaker B:

It is going to be out on July 15, if it'll be on Amazon for sure.

Speaker B:

It's on pre sale right now on Amazon for Kindle.

Speaker B:

But if you go to forgivenessbook.godjots.com I will very shortly be having a page up there where you've got some pre sale aspects and, and things like that.

Speaker B:

So July 15th is when it comes out.

Speaker B:

Forgivenessbook.godjots.com and podcasts and everything else.

Speaker B:

All my articles@godjots.com and everything else I'm doing is@enterbowen.com.

Speaker A:

All right.

Speaker A:

I don't know why I had to write that down, but.

Speaker B:

Because you know, the moment you get off the podcast, you're gonna go, I do it all the time.

Speaker A:

You know what, I'm glad you said that because I remember I was on with Memes, it was a student and I was just writing down a note and she's like, why are you writing it down?

Speaker A:

And I said, because, because why not?

Speaker A:

I need to.

Speaker A:

Why not?

Speaker A:

And she's like, we're recording this.

Speaker B:

That's true.

Speaker B:

Yeah, that is true.

Speaker B:

But then you have to fast forward all the way to the end and be like, no, it wasn't here.

Speaker B:

It wasn't here.

Speaker A:

Yes, valid point, valid point.

Speaker A:

I'm gonna see her tomorrow.

Speaker A:

We're gonna have lunch and we got like little journals.

Speaker A:

I don't know why I'm showing you, like, as if.

Speaker A:

So we got little journals and reading material.

Speaker B:

I'm wondering since you made this note, this point about like, I'm writing that down and you know, I take notes and stuff too, but it never occurred to me that I should write people's names down.

Speaker B:

Like, would that be, would that offend people.

Speaker B:

Like if I said, if someone said, hi, my name is Matt, I go, matt, Okay, I need to draw a little picture of you here.

Speaker B:

Just gotta make sure I got a face with the name.

Speaker B:

Does that look a bit like you there?

Speaker A:

I don't know.

Speaker A:

I don't know.

Speaker A:

You know what?

Speaker A:

This is so improv.

Speaker A:

I was thinking, oh, Matt, okay.

Speaker B:

And I'd just be like, matt, I got it.

Speaker B:

Then you walk around.

Speaker B:

You walk around the next day being like, I'm looking for Matt.

Speaker B:

I know I've seen him.

Speaker A:

Okay, that's Susie.

Speaker B:

There you are.

Speaker B:

I studied all these faces and names.

Speaker B:

I don't even look at the phone anymore.

Speaker B:

Even better, you gotta post it.

Speaker B:

Put pad of post its Matt Dunk right on your forehead, Matt.

Speaker A:

Oh gosh, don't take it off until you leave here, Matt, please don't take that off.

Speaker B:

And hey, that makes your photo easier too, because you don't even have to spend the time to write the label on it.

Speaker B:

You just go, there we go.

Speaker B:

We got Matt.

Speaker B:

Okay, you can take it off.

Speaker A:

Oh my gosh.

Speaker B:

Hey, Steve, what's up?

Speaker B:

No, wait.

Speaker B:

I'm so sorry.

Speaker A:

Oh, gosh.

Speaker B:

I'm gonna have a little fun with that.

Speaker B:

I need to do something.

Speaker B:

I know we gotta go, but really quickly.

Speaker B:

My wife had a birthday party a year ago where she said that all these different people that didn't know each other came.

Speaker B:

And she's like, I don't want you to put a name tag on you.

Speaker B:

I want you to write how we met.

Speaker B:

And so that created conversation when people that didn't know each other bumped into each other and they're like, that's how you met Emily?

Speaker B:

This is how I met Emily.

Speaker B:

And like that's.

Speaker B:

That's how they started talking.

Speaker B:

And it was.

Speaker B:

That was really, really fun.

Speaker A:

That's beautiful.

Speaker B:

Like, if you do something like that, where you're bringing people that don't know each other together.

Speaker A:

Yeah.

Speaker B:

It automatically made it less awkward for those people too.

Speaker B:

Like, where do I fit in?

Speaker B:

How do I know these people?

Speaker B:

It's like, well, don't worry about it.

Speaker B:

You're all going to be doing the same thing with this.

Speaker B:

So.

Speaker B:

Yeah, anything you can come up with to make things easier for strangers to talk is.

Speaker B:

Yes, that's money.

Speaker B:

That's a good one.

Speaker A:

It is.

Speaker A:

That is a good one.

Speaker A:

Oh yeah, that's a good one.

Speaker A:

I need to write that down because.

Speaker B:

You can't just take a picture of it.

Speaker B:

Like I took a picture of him saying what he was saying, but I don't know what he was saying.

Speaker A:

Oh, my goodness.

Speaker B:

Oh, man.

Speaker A:

Oh, my goodness.

Speaker A:

It is time.

Speaker A:

It's time for us to go because my daughter is now texting me.

Speaker A:

Like, are you on your way back?

Speaker A:

Also, we're getting low in olive oil.

Speaker A:

Dang.

Speaker A:

It's been used up.

Speaker A:

Quick.

Speaker A:

Emergencies.

Speaker B:

Emergency.

Speaker B:

Exactly.

Speaker B:

See that?

Speaker B:

Olive oil stats.

Speaker A:

Oh, God.

Speaker A:

Oh, gosh.

Speaker A:

I haven't lapped this this much in a while.

Speaker B:

Well, I'm.

Speaker B:

I'm.

Speaker B:

That make.

Speaker B:

That totally makes my day.

Speaker B:

Thank you.

Speaker B:

I haven't.

Speaker B:

I have.

Speaker B:

It's been.

Speaker B:

I haven't laughed that much either in quite a while, so thank you.

Speaker B:

We need to do this again sometimes.

Speaker A:

We do.

Speaker A:

We do.

Speaker B:

Like, we just.

Speaker B:

We.

Speaker B:

This is the first time, just for everybody.

Speaker B:

I feel like I'm the host for everybody who's listening or watching.

Speaker B:

This is the first time we've ever talked together.

Speaker A:

We did.

Speaker A:

Yeah.

Speaker B:

And you would.

Speaker B:

You would think that we've been talking for a while now.

Speaker A:

Yes.

Speaker B:

It was a pleasure to talk with you.

Speaker B:

I had so much fun.

Speaker A:

The same.

Speaker A:

The same.

Speaker A:

Any.

Speaker A:

Any words of wisdom before we.

Speaker A:

Before we go?

Speaker B:

You said so much.

Speaker B:

This podcast.

Speaker B:

I feel like I'm.

Speaker B:

I'm tapped out on wisdom.

Speaker A:

It's okay.

Speaker A:

Sometimes God be tapped out, too.

Speaker B:

That's why he rested on the seventh day, right?

Speaker A:

Yes.

Speaker A:

He didn't technically need to.

Speaker A:

He's gone.

Speaker B:

That's my advice to you today.

Speaker B:

Don't be afraid of rest.

Speaker B:

It's not a stop.

Speaker B:

It's not a quit.

Speaker B:

It's just taking a beat.

Speaker B:

It's all good.

Speaker B:

It's like a rest in a song.

Speaker B:

Song's still going, but you can rest, so.

Speaker A:

I like that.

Speaker B:

Yeah, there you go.

Speaker A:

I like that.

Speaker A:

All right, guys.

Speaker A:

Enter Bowen.

Speaker B:

Yes.

Speaker A:

I appreciate you today.

Speaker B:

Oh, I appreciate you, too.

Speaker B:

Thank you so much for having me on.

Speaker B:

I really.

Speaker B:

I really appreciate it.

Speaker A:

Oh, goodness.

Speaker A:

And everybody else, see you next time.

Speaker B:

All right, bye.

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The Black Sheep Christian
Rebels Living in Christ
Black Sheep Christian podcast spotlights a variety of authors, pastors, influencers and everyday people at the intersection of their lived experience.

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Ashley Rutledge