Romell & Ashley: Shattering Stereotypes in Faith
We're diving deep into the juicy topic of the LGBTQ community in the church and how we can all vibe with God's purpose, no matter who we love. Rommel Parks joins me to unravel those awkward conversations about faith, sexuality, and the baffling ways religion can trip us up. We’re tackling everything from the absurdities of outdated beliefs to the real struggles folks face just trying to exist in faith spaces that don’t always welcome them. It’s all about understanding that different perspectives can coexist, and how love should always be the bottom line. So, grab your favorite snack, kick back, and let’s get ready to rethink some stuff together!
Ready to shake things up? This episode serves up a hearty discussion on the intersection of LGBTQ+ identities and the church, featuring yours truly and the fabulous Rommel Parks Weekly. We’re diving into the nitty-gritty of how people of faith can live authentically without having to check their identities at the door. There’s a lot of ground to cover, from the absurdity of outdated beliefs about sexuality to the hypocrisy of condemning same-sex relationships while ignoring the myriad ways the Bible has been misinterpreted over the years.
We kick things off with some real talk about how orientation isn’t a ‘choice’—because if it were, wouldn’t we all just choose the path of least resistance? Rommel shares his experience navigating the complexities of being a gay man in the church, and trust me, it’s both eye-opening and humorous. We laugh about the ridiculousness of societal norms that allow straight couples to live together outside of marriage while casting judgment on same-sex couples just trying to exist in love. It’s a wild ride through the absurdity of our cultural biases and a call to action for Christians to embrace a more loving and inclusive approach.
As we meander through these discussions, we touch on the importance of understanding the cultural context of biblical texts and how often they’ve been weaponized against marginalized communities. We’re not just here to poke fun at the church; we’re here to advocate for a transformation of mindset that aligns more closely with the core message of Christianity—love, acceptance, and community. By the end of our chat, you’ll find yourself pondering the deeper questions about faith and identity, and how we can all live together in harmony, no matter who we love. So, buckle up for an episode that’s both challenging and uplifting, and get ready to rethink what it means to live in God’s purpose.
Takeaways:
- Embracing LGBTQ individuals within the church means acknowledging the complex relationship between faith and identity.
- The conversation around homosexuality in the church often involves a lot of misunderstandings and cultural biases that need addressing.
- Understanding that scripture was written in a specific cultural context can change how we interpret its teachings today.
- True love in faith means allowing room for disagreement without judgment, focusing on mutual respect and understanding.
Transcript
Welcome back.
Speaker A:My name is Ashley, and this is the Black Sheep Christian Podcast.
Speaker A:Today.
Speaker A:I have Rommel joining us today with us.
Speaker A:Welcome, welcome.
Speaker B:Thank you so much for the welcome.
Speaker B:I'm glad to be here.
Speaker A:Now you are a pastor, which I greatly appreciate and need.
Speaker A:Today.
Speaker A:I was.
Speaker A:I remember I was talking.
Speaker A:I'm like, watching your intro, but I remember brows talking to a pastor one time, and, you know, the struggle is real.
Speaker A:And sometimes, like, with a pastor, it's kind of.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:It's a check.
Speaker A:I need to get checked right now as a doctor.
Speaker A:And so, doctor, I'm gonna need you.
Speaker A:So you are not only a pastor, but you're an advocate for the LGBTQ community plus and women's rights.
Speaker A:Also, you're passionate about God and you have a YouTube channel.
Speaker B:I do.
Speaker B:I do.
Speaker B:At our Parks Weekly.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:So thank you for joining us today.
Speaker B:Thank you so much.
Speaker B:I really do appreciate the opportunity to throw my thoughts to the world.
Speaker A:So it's so interesting because as we begin, church member and talking about.
Speaker A:It was a Bible study, actually, and we were in First Corinthians, if I remember correctly, like, eight, nine, somewhere around there.
Speaker A:And so homosexuality comes into the.
Speaker A:Into the conversation.
Speaker A:And so some of us have family members that identify and some don't, or they feel otherwise about the community and their participation in the church.
Speaker A:I'll say it like that.
Speaker A:I feel like that's a diplomatic.
Speaker B:Yes, it is.
Speaker A:So my question to begin the conversation is with these two groups.
Speaker A:One, I do have a family member that identifies one.
Speaker A:They feel the other way.
Speaker A:And actually, we actually ended up having a phone conversation afterwards.
Speaker A:And I.
Speaker A:And they were very passionate about it is a choice.
Speaker A:And I was like, no, based on my experience.
Speaker A:But in order to appease the conversation, and I'm admitting to it, I said, can two things exist?
Speaker A:And so my question is, when it comes to who we are as people, what is your expert opinion about people who identify in the community?
Speaker B:So particularly, you know, in relation to that question of choice, I think that we have to differentiate between orientation, that is an internal feeling versus behavior, because those are two very different things.
Speaker B:And so even me as a gay man, there was a time in my life when I chose a behavior that was contrary to my actual orientation.
Speaker B:I married a woman.
Speaker B:I was married for six years.
Speaker B:And so me marrying a woman did not change my orientation.
Speaker B:It was just the behavior that I engaged in for a particular reason.
Speaker B:And, of course, mine being religious and cultural.
Speaker B:And so I think that it's important that people recognize that part And I think that if sexuality were a choice, I would be straight today.
Speaker B:Because all throughout my early life, I made that choice to be straight over and over and over and over again, and it never took.
Speaker B:And it's interesting how being gay is a choice, but gay people who choose to be straight have to go to therapy and ex gay conversion and counseling.
Speaker B:Well, why isn't choosing to be straight a choice if choosing to be gay supposedly is so.
Speaker B:Doesn't make sense to me.
Speaker B:But I understand how people who don't necessarily have a vested interest in trying to understand can be led astray by.
Speaker B:By the propaganda that's out there.
Speaker B:But I do hope that people keep an open mind and really hear from those who actually are LGBTQ plus or allies.
Speaker A:Beautiful.
Speaker A:And, you know, when I think about it, I think it's very dangerous when we talk about a group of people.
Speaker A:And it's interesting because I wrote some quotes.
Speaker A:I was listening to some of your stuff, and I wrote some quotes.
Speaker A:Oh, and they were just.
Speaker A:They were nuggets.
Speaker A:Okay, let me find.
Speaker A:I got this whole page, and I didn't even make it.
Speaker A:Oh, where are you?
Speaker A:Oh, here we go.
Speaker A:Here we go.
Speaker A:This was a reaction to a debate that you had, and the reaction, for those who would like to know the title is what.
Speaker A:What It Is with Christians and Homosexuality.
Speaker A:And this was reaction to the debate of.
Speaker A:He knew.
Speaker A:He was talking nonsense with the title on YouTube.
Speaker A:And I wrote this, and I thought it was a beautiful quote that you said that in reference to homosexuality.
Speaker A:It has a special place in the heart of believers as far as that subject and that debate.
Speaker A:As far as my.
Speaker A:I'm losing my words.
Speaker A:As far as why we are so hard on a group of people.
Speaker B:Yeah, Yeah.
Speaker B:I think that, like, even politically, people always try to find a boogeyman to point at.
Speaker B:And over time, that changes, you know, the direction they're pointing in changes.
Speaker B:It was black people.
Speaker B:It was LGBTQ plus people.
Speaker B:Now it's particularly trans people.
Speaker B:There's always a boogeyman, because having somebody to rally against is more impactful, unfortunately, than having something positive to rally around.
Speaker B:It's kind of like how anger is a much more acceptable emotion for men to deal with than fear, even though both of those are very human experiences.
Speaker B:And so, in the same way, we respond much more to a negative, unfortunately, than to a positive.
Speaker B:And so, from a political point of view, I think that that's one of the reasons.
Speaker B:But I also think that there is within Christianity a significant degree of sexual repression, just in general related to Even heterosexuality.
Speaker B:And so homosexuality becomes a perfect storm.
Speaker B:Because if we can't even really discuss sex without using air quotes and halfway whispering the words we're talking about, I asked, then, you know, then how much more are we not able to have the conversation about homosexual.
Speaker B:A few years ago, I asked a question.
Speaker B:I'm good at getting myself in trouble.
Speaker B:I asked the question on Facebook.
Speaker B:I said, does God have a penis?
Speaker B:And the point that I was making is that, you know, God is spirit, you know, and even though we may tend to wrap our mind around the concept of God using male oriented terminology, God is not male, God is not female, God is spirit.
Speaker B:But just the very fact that I say, asked, does God have a penis?
Speaker B:The use of the word penis, I mean, it just set people off.
Speaker B:It triggered people in a way that when I asked the question now, I knew I was being provocative, but I didn't expect the level of vitriol that I got in response, even from people who are LGBTQ plus Christians.
Speaker B:And that really showed me how a simple word of anatomy.
Speaker B:We're so detached from it and we see it as such a.
Speaker B:A negative, a filthy thing, that to include the word in a.
Speaker B:In a sentence with God or.
Speaker B:Or to even question whether God has a penis seems so, I mean, heretical.
Speaker B:And to me, that was very telling about the work that we have to do.
Speaker B:It's not just with LGBTQ people, it's with human sexuality in general.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker A:I gotta digest that.
Speaker B:Indeed.
Speaker A:Because that was like.
Speaker A:Because I remember when.
Speaker A:Oh, well, this was while ago, long while ago, and someone was like, what if Jesus was a woman?
Speaker A:And I was just like, like, like, like my mind was just like, like, as if, like the universe was breaking apart in my mind.
Speaker A:So to be able to say with genus, with Jesus having a penis, you know, with God having a penis is like, what?
Speaker A:And you know what?
Speaker A:It makes sense because, you know, with Jesus, it's like this.
Speaker A:It's like this push for some that he was married.
Speaker A:Like, Jesus couldn't have been on this earth and not have had a relationship with a woman.
Speaker A:You know, Mary Magdalene, who must have done.
Speaker A:What a shame for this man to be on Earth for 30 years and not have a relationship with a woman.
Speaker B:Because we can't imagine, like, it's like if you're not coupled up just in general, let alone in terms of being with the opposite sex, if you're not coupled up, there's something missing in your life.
Speaker B:I get tired of people asking single people, so when are you going to get married.
Speaker B:So when are you going to start your family?
Speaker B:How about, you know, celebrating them for who they are in the place that they are?
Speaker B:Perhaps they want to eventually, perhaps they don't, but either way it's a good thing.
Speaker A:So this, this moves me to straight couples, which I don't even know why I say that word.
Speaker A:When I say that word, I'm like, straight isn't heterosexual couple.
Speaker A:Straight is such a weird word because it's like it's gay, crooked, you know, I mean, I mean these, these words are just so ingrained.
Speaker A:But with heterosexual, hetero, together and not married, that's okay in society.
Speaker A:But God does not feel that's okay.
Speaker B:You know, you, you froze for just a second.
Speaker B:So the first part, were you saying that we, that they live together and are not married?
Speaker B:Is that what you're saying?
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:Living together and not married.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:So scripture isn't okay with that.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:But as society, we make it okay for a couple to live together and not be married.
Speaker A:Because there's a lot of scripture with God talking about marriage.
Speaker B:There is a lot of scripture with, so okay, I'm going to get in trouble.
Speaker B:There's a lot of scripture with God talking about marriage, but there's also a lot of scripture with God talking about slavery.
Speaker B:There's a lot of scripture with God talking about wives being subject to their husbands.
Speaker B:There's a lot of scripture regarding these matters.
Speaker B:But because scripture was written to specific people living in a specific socio religious context, and so God is addressing to them those issues that relate to their lived experience.
Speaker B:But I think that we have to be careful to try to differentiate between a divine perspective and the divine attempting to give something relevant to the people who are living in a particular social context.
Speaker B:And so one example of that would be how in scripture, both Old and New Testament, we see very clear delineations between the, the, the roles, if you will, of men and women.
Speaker B:And one of them in particular relates to adultery, or not even, let's not even say adultery.
Speaker B:Let's go back.
Speaker B:One in particular relates to premarital sex.
Speaker B:Nowhere in scripture, especially in the Old Testament, do we find any condemnation of a man engaging in premarital sex.
Speaker B:But we do find plenty of condemnations, even including up to the penalty of stoning for women who engage in premarital sex.
Speaker B:And so the question is, well, what do we do with that?
Speaker B:Well, traditionally we just general use the generic word fornication and apply to everybody, even though that's not actually what scripture teaches.
Speaker B:And we ask the question well, what's the difference?
Speaker B:Well, in the culture of that time, women were considered property.
Speaker B:They didn't have equal, they weren't on an equal footing with men.
Speaker B:When they were raised, they were under the authority of their father.
Speaker B:And then when they got married, they came under the authority of their husband.
Speaker B:And so for a woman to have sex outside of that authority structure was an affront to the very fabric of the society within which they existed.
Speaker B:And so strict penalties were put in place regarding that for that reason.
Speaker B:Which means that everything we read in the Bible isn't divine.
Speaker B:Much of it is cultural.
Speaker B:But if we don't study the culture, we'll make everything divine and then wind up applying it in situations and to circumstances it was to which it was never intended to apply.
Speaker A:Wow, my mind is slowly exploding.
Speaker A:And it makes sense.
Speaker A:It makes sense what you said.
Speaker A:It really makes sense what you said.
Speaker A:The reason why my mind is just slowing down is because as a woman, I have, you know, living with a man and unmarried is not right.
Speaker A:And so for you to say that, it just really hurts my brain right now.
Speaker A:It's kind of like, oh, is it still okay to do that?
Speaker A:Is it not okay to do that?
Speaker A:Like, why does God want, how does God want us to live this life?
Speaker B:I think that it can be.
Speaker B:I think that we tend to make it complicated because we're fighting against theology and we're fighting against generations of set in stone practices and beliefs and concepts.
Speaker B:But I think that everything can be reduced because one thing Jesus said was that his yoke was easy, right?
Speaker B:Like this doesn't seem easy.
Speaker B:This is hard stuff trying to work through all of this.
Speaker B:But I think that we can distill it all down to a very simple question.
Speaker B:I think that Jesus modeled this perfectly in his ministry.
Speaker B:So in Matthew 12, I'm trying to give the short, short version of this.
Speaker B:In Matthew 12, Jesus is walking through a, through a field with his disciples and they're harvesting grain and eating it.
Speaker B:And the, the Pharisees who are around are like incense.
Speaker B:Why are you letting your people harvest?
Speaker B:Because it's Saturday, it's the seventh day, it's Sabbath.
Speaker B:And they're doing what is, what is not lawful to do.
Speaker B:And Jesus, long story short, basically told them they're hungry.
Speaker B:That is to say, the well being of people matter more than laws and precepts, even laws and precepts that were handed down by God.
Speaker B:Because later on that same day, Jesus healed a person in the synagogue, no less, and was criticized for doing it.
Speaker B:And his answer was man was not made for the Sabbath, or in other words, to serve the Sabbath.
Speaker B:Rather, the Sabbath was made to serve man.
Speaker B:That is, every law, every command, every precept was only ever given because it was for our good.
Speaker B:And so the question that we need to ask then, and trying to differentiate between cultural things and traditional things and what is actually a divine decree and a divine perspective, is, what is for our good?
Speaker B:Because Jesus says, every law, every prophecy hangs on the law of love, loving God and loving one another as ourselves, which implies we have to also love ourselves.
Speaker B:So love and the human good.
Speaker B:If we apply that rubric to the questions of is this wrong?
Speaker B:Is this right?
Speaker B:Is this a sin?
Speaker B:Is this not a sin?
Speaker B:I think that it makes it much easier to work through that stuff, even though our answers may not necessarily reflect what we were raised to believe.
Speaker B:And so the idea for me at least, of, is it wrong?
Speaker B:Is it a sin for two people to cohabitate before marriage?
Speaker B:The question becomes, well, does it work to their good?
Speaker B:Is it for their good?
Speaker B:Is it somehow contrary to their good?
Speaker B:Because one, there's an assumption that they're having sex, which they may or may not actually be doing.
Speaker B:And then also there's this question of, again, what's for the.
Speaker B:For the good of the individual?
Speaker B:Well, that kind of makes it too relative and not absolute.
Speaker B:Well, what's wrong with relativism if every human being is different?
Speaker B:If every human being is experiencing life with different circumstances and different.
Speaker B:For example, black people getting married, jumping over a broom.
Speaker B:Does God honor that, even though they weren't in a church, being married by a priest?
Speaker B:You know, the state didn't authorize it.
Speaker B:Different cultural experiences.
Speaker B:But yet we don't think that God necessarily requires us to submit to a particular way of being just because it may be the predominant way of being.
Speaker B:I'm giving a longer answer to a shorter question, so I'm going to stop now.
Speaker A:I'm.
Speaker A:I'm being fed.
Speaker A:I'm being fed because my mind, when.
Speaker A:When you say that, I'm like, well, that what we're talking about is.
Speaker A:Could be classified as secondary matters.
Speaker A:You know, I mean, I bet yesterday when I was in Bible study, you know, we're studying Corinthians.
Speaker A:Well, where were we?
Speaker A:Oh, and Corinthians 11.
Speaker A:And the question was secondary matters.
Speaker A:So, you know, I'm thinking like, baptism, how you perform a baptism, how you perform communion, you know, those are secondary matters.
Speaker A:But I'm thinking that now this is a much bigger.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:It's much bigger than that indeed.
Speaker B:Because if we really want to like, get into the weeds of theology, what is marriage?
Speaker B:Because before there was a state government to, to, to co, sign and authorize a marriage, people were still getting married.
Speaker B:Before there was a church, people were still getting married.
Speaker B:When Adam and Eve had children and their children got married, who performed the ceremony.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:And so we have been conditioned to view marriage in a particular way through a particular lens.
Speaker B:And I don't think that that lens is wrong.
Speaker B:It, it's just that we, we, we turn it into a rule or a law when biblically, there's no justification for that.
Speaker B:And so two people, I believe, can be married before God whether the law agrees or not.
Speaker B:Now, to say that people would first know that's not right.
Speaker B:That's not right.
Speaker B:And then I say, okay, so tell my ancestors 250 years ago who got married illegally.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Extralegally, that they were wrong.
Speaker B:And well, that's different.
Speaker B:Well, why is it different?
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:And so we got to, we, we, we're very, we pick and choose when to make something apply and when to make it not apply.
Speaker B:But to me, theological integrity requires us to be consistent in our application of the principles that undergird scripture.
Speaker B:Because one thing I do believe is that even though what's on the surface of the text is very relative to the people that it's, that is being written to.
Speaker B:And you know, taking into account their cultural context, the principles upon which it rests, I believe are universal.
Speaker B:And if we can get those principles out from under the layers of cultural relativity, then we can start applying those things in a way in our own context that produce positive fruit, which was always what was intended when it was written in the first place.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker A:Has entered a whole new level because with what you said, and it rips my understanding of the Bible apart.
Speaker A:And I say that because it really is more as we're talking.
Speaker A:And I can be wrong and correct me, the Bible is at this point coming to me or being rebirthed to me as a book of wisdom of a way to live a life with Christ.
Speaker A:It isn't the way, if I'm saying my words, right, is not the way, but it is a way to live with Christ.
Speaker A:And so these are the ways to live a loving life with Christ.
Speaker A:Am I saying that right?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Am I articulating that right?
Speaker B:I would agree, and I would add that it was much more, it was much closer to, if we're going to use terminology that seems rather exclusive, but it was much more closer to the way to the people it was directly written to, because it was written with their cultural context in mind, with their lived experience in mind.
Speaker B:That's not us.
Speaker B:And so we have to do that extra work of trying to uncover not just the what was said, but the why.
Speaker B:Why was it said?
Speaker B:Because once I understand why, then I can apply.
Speaker B:Apply it to my vastly different set of circumstances in a way that retains the why, even if the what winds up being the exact opposite.
Speaker B:Let me give you a really brief example.
Speaker B:So women in the ministry.
Speaker B:So there was a time in my life when I didn't.
Speaker B:I did not subscribe to the idea that women could serve in leadership positions at the, the church.
Speaker B:Thank God for evolution.
Speaker B:But.
Speaker B:But I came to realize that, you know, that God affirmed women in leadership.
Speaker B:But you don't really find that in New Testament scripture.
Speaker B:What you find are much more direct prohibitions of it not usurping authority over the man, women learning in silence and subjection.
Speaker B:And so we have a history of renegotiating the text given our own particular cultural context.
Speaker B:And I don't.
Speaker B:I don't think that that's a bad thing.
Speaker B:If we ask, why were those prohibitions given?
Speaker B:Then we'll understand, oh, they were given because the predominant culture of the world was that women.
Speaker B:That women were subject to men.
Speaker B:And so if women were operating in authority, it would bear fruit.
Speaker B:A really horrible witness of the church who's trying to get this whole culture and world born again.
Speaker B:There's a text actually where the writer, I think it's Paul specifically, even says, women do this so that they will have nothing bad to say about us.
Speaker B:Women do this so that the gospel won't be misaligned, maligned.
Speaker B:So he, he literally lays out that the.
Speaker B:That the reason I'm commanding this is not because it's like God's divine intent toward women, but because we live in a particular world who sees things a particular way.
Speaker B:And if we're not relatable to the people that we're trying to minister to, they're not going to be able to receive our.
Speaker B:This gospel.
Speaker B:Now, if we translate that 2,000 years across time and 10,000 miles across space, because we're in a totally different part of the world, applying it at face value will have the exact opposite effect of what was intended in the text.
Speaker B:Now we'll be seen as repressive and antiquated and oppressive rather than as being consistent with the, with the predominant worldview.
Speaker B:And so if we can't make those adjustments, and unfortunately, in many cases we don't make those Adjustments, then the very world that Paul was concerned about being able to receive our gospel is the very world we're offending.
Speaker B:Because if I'm a non believer and a woman, why would I want to become a Christian just to take my free self and now become oppressed?
Speaker B:It doesn't make sense.
Speaker B:But that's what happens when we don't do that extra work of moving the Bible through time and moving the Bible across space.
Speaker A:And as you say that I had this thought that pop up in my mind is that now with this idea of the Bible and, and what to use it for and how to apply really gives.
Speaker A:I mean, like they care.
Speaker A:I mean, they've gone and been long gone.
Speaker A:But people like Paul takes the pressure off of them, you know, of what they were writing.
Speaker A:You know, I remember, I think like in chapter in 11, towards the end of letter, like, I will come back for other matters.
Speaker A:You know, it's a letter.
Speaker A:So it's, it's like as if, you know, we sent somebody a postcard.
Speaker A:I can't wait to see you soon so we could talk.
Speaker A:Talk about what?
Speaker A:What, what were you wanting to talk about?
Speaker A:Why did you end this letter this way?
Speaker A: know these matters today, in: Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:But the people that he was talking to probably knew what he was referring to, right?
Speaker A:Exactly.
Speaker A:Exactly.
Speaker A:So with this conversation, it, it almost in my mind, I, I put too much pressure on Paul.
Speaker A:Like, Paul, you were, you know, I don't know, I don't even know what I was imagining, you know, like God, like right there and you know, like in the Old Testament especially, you know, reading 2nd Samuel when, you know, he's, David's in his prime, he's doing his thing.
Speaker A:He's got concubines and wives.
Speaker A:And he started a whole other family at this point, which.
Speaker A:Who knows what happened to the other wives and kids of the first family.
Speaker A:But then he's like, God, can I, you know, go after the Philistines?
Speaker A:And God's like, sure, I'll deliver them to your hand, but this is how the way to do it.
Speaker A:Like, like, why, why can't we.
Speaker A:Bad conversations.
Speaker B:It makes it seem so easy, doesn't it?
Speaker A:But yet I gotta be in silence, be in prayer, wait, you know, no noise.
Speaker A:Like, I want what is written in scripture for God to tell me exactly the way it is written in Scripture.
Speaker B:Well, here's the question that'll bake your noodle.
Speaker B:Who said the data wasn't in silence?
Speaker B:Just because the Bible gives it to us in like One or two verses doesn't mean he didn't have to wrestle.
Speaker B:Try to figure out what God was saying to him.
Speaker A:That that is a true point.
Speaker A:That is a true point.
Speaker B:But I think.
Speaker B:I think also that.
Speaker B:That the, the richness, the.
Speaker B:The value is not in the answer.
Speaker B:Like God, just tell me.
Speaker B:The value is found in our journey toward the answer.
Speaker B:I love how Jesus says that the Spirit will guide us.
Speaker B:He didn't say will tell us all truth, but will guide us into all truth.
Speaker B:Because the journey itself has value.
Speaker B:One of my favorite passages in the Bible is in Proverbs.
Speaker B:It's, oh, I forget the chapter numbers, but it's in Proverbs and it says that it is the.
Speaker B:It is the.
Speaker B:The glory of God to conceal a matter and the honor of kings to search it out, say, well, God, why would you conceal it from us?
Speaker B:And God said, I didn't conceal it from you.
Speaker B:I concealed it for.
Speaker B:For you.
Speaker B:Because your process of searching it out is going to give.
Speaker B:Bring more value to your spiritual life than me just telling you the answer.
Speaker A:And that makes perfect sense because I think about Exodus and after Exodus, Numbers, you know, God taking his people out of Egypt, and he took them on the longest route.
Speaker A:And the whole purpose of that longest route is so that they could shed what they, at that time hold dear to them.
Speaker A:Knowledge, behavior, thinking.
Speaker A:The whole purpose was to get rid of that.
Speaker A:Now it wasn't.
Speaker A:They struggled a bit.
Speaker A:Even after taking that long route, they struggled quite a bit.
Speaker B:Like we're struggling now.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:I can only imagine it would be like I took them on the longest route.
Speaker A:I should have made this earth a little bit bigger.
Speaker A:Just 30 more miles.
Speaker A:They could have gotten it right.
Speaker A:Oh, gosh.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker A:That.
Speaker A:That's beautiful.
Speaker A:I wrote that down so I.
Speaker A:So I can be able to read that later in Proverbs.
Speaker A:That's beautiful, man.
Speaker A:Nuggets.
Speaker A:Nuggets.
Speaker A:I don't even know.
Speaker A:I wrote all these notes and I don't even know where to go next.
Speaker A:All these nuggets.
Speaker A:So another question.
Speaker A:Well, I mean, we already talked about that.
Speaker A:What the.
Speaker A:What the laws that Moses did.
Speaker A:Oh, yes.
Speaker A:I'm gonna be jumping around here.
Speaker A:You know what?
Speaker A:I was listening to that.
Speaker A:To that debate.
Speaker A:I'll be honest with you.
Speaker A:I commend you for doing it for that long.
Speaker A:And let's just start off with that.
Speaker B:So which debate?
Speaker B:Because I do a lot of these.
Speaker B:Which one are you referring to?
Speaker A:The one that was done four months ago.
Speaker A:It was.
Speaker A:I still have it up on my phone.
Speaker A:It Was with.
Speaker A:It was two gentlemen.
Speaker A:Oh, my gosh.
Speaker A:And you know what this is?
Speaker A:I was listening to it when I was fasting, which.
Speaker A:Which is a struggle in itself.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:When you learn about the Lord, it's a struggle in itself.
Speaker A:It's with you and Mark, right?
Speaker A:Was it the pastor?
Speaker A:Mark?
Speaker A:Wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute.
Speaker A:I gotta find it.
Speaker A:It was.
Speaker A:Harley initiated that.
Speaker A:That is the name.
Speaker B:Oh, Marcus Rogers.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:Yes, Marcus.
Speaker A:Thank you.
Speaker A:I apologize.
Speaker A:And then it was the three of you, the three pastors.
Speaker A:And then you had the two hosts.
Speaker A:And then.
Speaker A:So I was watching that one and Woo Wee.
Speaker B:Yeah, that was a special one.
Speaker A:That was a lot.
Speaker A:I had to take a break a couple of times because, like Rose said, I was fasting.
Speaker A:So I commend you on that.
Speaker A:And I am part of me.
Speaker A:I say that because I.
Speaker A:It's funny because I call myself a baby Christian.
Speaker A:I have been promoted to toddler because my daughter was like, if you're a baby, then I'm in the womb.
Speaker A:So I've been promoted to toddler.
Speaker A:Just so.
Speaker A:And the Bible is so much.
Speaker A:66.
Speaker A:66 books, over 3,000 verses.
Speaker A:And to be able to spitfire the way that you.
Speaker A:You all did that is some serious training.
Speaker A:One of my thoughts, which I had a lot of thoughts on it, but these are the ones that, That I wrote down.
Speaker A:And that is when the one pastor was, you know, with homosexuality and his belief, while they shouldn't be a part of the church, in my mind, I put down a thought as far as well, was the push for heterosexual relationships in the Bible was just to fulfill Abraham's promise.
Speaker A:Because at the end of the day, if God made him a promise, things had to move in a certain direction.
Speaker A:Not to say that there couldn't be, but it was only for him to fulfill a promise.
Speaker B:We could even go back to.
Speaker B:Even go back in time further to.
Speaker B:To Adam.
Speaker B:When God creates Adam and says, be fruitful and multiple Adam and Eve and be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth, feel the earth.
Speaker B:And people use that all the time to say, well, see that gay people can't do that.
Speaker B:And I'm like, so one number one, he was talking to two people.
Speaker B:And the fact that there are over 8 billion people on the planet right now, I think they fulfilled the command.
Speaker B:And the other thing is that the fact, you know, of course people say, well, no, he was talking to everybody.
Speaker B:But then we asked the question, okay, so do you actually believe that if a heterosexual couple loves each other, gets married and chooses not to have children that they're sinning?
Speaker B:Well, no, I don't believe that because they still can.
Speaker B:That makes it even worse.
Speaker B:At least the gay couple can.
Speaker B:But they're choosing, even though they can have children, to supposedly rebel against God's command to be fruitful and multiply.
Speaker B:And, and, and so people usually, usually recognize the fact that that was not.
Speaker B:After that point is made.
Speaker B:I should say that that was not a command given to everyone.
Speaker B:We, we tend to take very contextual things in the Bible and apply them universally without considering what are the consequences of that.
Speaker B:After all, Jesus was 30 years old when he's.
Speaker B:His ministry started, 33 by the time he was crucified.
Speaker B:I don't have a record of him being married.
Speaker B:I don't have a record of him multiplying physically having children.
Speaker B:And so if.
Speaker B:Was he sinning and if he did sin, according to you, he did.
Speaker B:If he did not you, of course.
Speaker B:But if he did sin, then am I saved?
Speaker B:Because I thought the Lamb had to be spotless right there.
Speaker B:Consequences to bad theology that we don't often think about.
Speaker B:And so unfortunately, yeah, we hear those types of arguments a lot regarding limited things that God said that are taken as a law for everyone.
Speaker A:Now, that's a nugget, a command.
Speaker A:Not for everyone.
Speaker A:That's.
Speaker A:That's something to digest.
Speaker B:Indeed.
Speaker A:And, and I'm digesting it because when you start off with Sunday school, it's the Ten Commandments, it's like these things that everybody is not supposed to do.
Speaker A:And so when you say a command is not for everyone, not to say that I'm telling people it's okay to murder and it's okay to steal somebody, but that really takes the pressure off of our.
Speaker A:It takes the pressure off and it allows us to maybe to truly fulfill our purpose in life.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And I think that you putting those two things together is very powerful pressure and purpose, because oftentimes the religious pressure that we put ourselves under or that we put other people under actually work against us fulfilling our purpose and not.
Speaker B:It doesn't serve that actual purpose.
Speaker A:Yeah, right.
Speaker A:Oh, my gosh, I'm so glad we're talking today because my mind is really, I didn't expect for my mind to explode in this way.
Speaker A:I had a personal experience and I said, you know, I want to talk through this personal experience.
Speaker A:And God's like, I got some more things for you.
Speaker A:Oh.
Speaker A:Because I mean, to, to the idea to be a Christian is not only to, to follow Christ and to show love to Others.
Speaker A:But the idea of being a Christian and, and this is.
Speaker A:With.
Speaker A:Now that I'm thinking about it, my mind is just like with all religions, with all religions, there is this set, you know, this preset box that you have chosen.
Speaker A:You went and you shopped and you said, this is the, this is the set that I'm going to take.
Speaker A:It's preset.
Speaker A:Nothing.
Speaker A:It's not customized in no shape or form.
Speaker A:These are the things that come with it, and these are the things that you're supposed to do with it.
Speaker A:You know, you know, Hindus do this, and you know, Buddhists do that and Christians do that and Muslims do this.
Speaker A:And it.
Speaker A:And, and it just separates us.
Speaker A:That's the only way we can separate.
Speaker A:And it feels good because it's kind of like, oh, I know you're Muslim because this comes in your box.
Speaker A:Oh, I know you're a Buddhist because that comes in your box.
Speaker A:And as a Christian, this is what comes in my box.
Speaker A:But now you're saying that I can customize my box.
Speaker A:And now that I can, after we come here, I'm going to be praying, I'm going to be sleeping, and I'm going to wake up the next morning and I'm going to be like, what can I customize in my box?
Speaker A:My box looks different now.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:And until to be able to fulfill.
Speaker A:And it almost feels fearful.
Speaker A:It feels confusing.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:And it feels as if that when I step out of my home, the judgment, oh, no, no, that's not supposed to be in your box.
Speaker A:That's not how you're supposed to use that in your box, if that makes sense.
Speaker B:Oh, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker B:Being given rules and regulations, do's and don'ts, being put under a legalistic framework makes the process, the process easy.
Speaker B:Mentally easily.
Speaker B:Doesn't make it actually easy, but mentally easy because we don't have to do the work.
Speaker B:I don't have to think too hard about it.
Speaker B:I don't have to wrestle with it.
Speaker B:I'll just do it because I'm told by somebody else to do it.
Speaker B:But when those restraints fall off, now I have to take accountability and take responsibility for thinking these matters through, for rest, for doing like Jacob wrestling.
Speaker B:Isn't it amazing that Jacob wrestled with God and God blessed him for it?
Speaker B:Rather than saying, why are you wrestling with me?
Speaker B:He actually blessed him for it.
Speaker B:And so perhaps there's a blessing in us not just accepting what we're told or conditioned to believe, but actually wrestling with it.
Speaker B:God even told us to wrestle when he tells us even If I tell you something, wrestle with it.
Speaker B:What did he say?
Speaker B:Try the spirits, whether they be from God, that includes the Holy Spirit.
Speaker B:Because it's my responsibility to make sure that what I'm hearing is really from, is really from God.
Speaker B:Then over in Isaiah 1, come now, let us reason together.
Speaker B:Let's have a conversation about this.
Speaker B:Let's talk about it.
Speaker B:Paul said in 1st Corinthians 2, I am determined to know nothing among you save Christ and him crucified.
Speaker B:In other words, he said, I have two fundamentals, Jesus Christ and him crucified.
Speaker B:Outside of that, let's talk about, about it.
Speaker B:Let's talk about it.
Speaker B:But for modern Christians, especially in the west, especially in the evangelical and conservative church, we have a million fundamentals.
Speaker B:We have doctrines and rule books and, and denominational handbooks, and we have so many fun.
Speaker B:Everything is.
Speaker B:If we believe it, it's fundamental.
Speaker B:Paul said, I believe a lot of stuff.
Speaker B:In fact, I believe so much stuff and I'm so strong minded in what I believe.
Speaker B:I've written all these letters and epistles to tell people what I believe, but the one thing I know is Christ and him crucified.
Speaker B:Believing a thing and knowing a thing are two different things.
Speaker B:And unfortunately for Christians today, we have failed to live into the beauty of belief without knowing.
Speaker B:Yes, David said one thing have I desired, and that will I seek after.
Speaker B:He says that I may behold the beauty of the Lord, blah, blah.
Speaker B:He said that I may inquire in his temple.
Speaker B:We don't inquire anymore because we're just told what to believe.
Speaker B:We're told what to think.
Speaker B:We've lost the beauty and reverence, the holiness of wonderment and awe and not getting it and wrestling with it and being afraid to walk out your door when you leave the door because you don't have all of the answers.
Speaker B:But God says there's beauty in that.
Speaker B:And I think unfortunately we've lost a lot of that beauty.
Speaker A:Agreed.
Speaker A:Agreed.
Speaker A:And you know, when you speak about Paul, it makes sense, and I don't remember where it is in Corinthians, but there's a moment in which he was like, if it matters to you, it matters to you.
Speaker A:If it doesn't, it doesn't.
Speaker A:And that's, and it's kind of like, that's okay.
Speaker A:And you'll be like, paul, what?
Speaker A:What are you talking about?
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:And then in another section, it's like in another chapter, he was like, if that's a hindrance to them, then that's a hindrance to them.
Speaker A:You know, we need to respect if that's a hindrance to somebody.
Speaker A:And, and, and, and that's another form of, of conversation too, as far as, as Christians, how we move about in the church.
Speaker A:You know, if someone feels that they are okay living unmarried in a household, then then that's okay for them.
Speaker A:If someone else doesn't feel that way, then that we should allow with love to be able to accept each other and are in a, and understand and not necessarily have to agree, but to understand their, their walk on their path.
Speaker B:Yes, there's a pass right where you're talking about where he says, let each one be convinced in his own mind.
Speaker B:In other words, let them deal with that between them and God.
Speaker B:And it's like we don't trust the Holy Spirit anymore.
Speaker B:If, if they have the Holy Spirit, they're born again, then I can trust that over time the Holy Spirit is going to tell them, hey, this is not what, this is not God's best for you.
Speaker B:The Holy Spirit is the one who can convict and, and turn hearts toward what's right.
Speaker B:It's not our job to have to do that.
Speaker B:And so, yeah, like you said, not having to agree, but to still walk together, to still love together.
Speaker B:Now it's a difference if it's something that's causing harm to someone.
Speaker B:We don't, we don't make room for sexual abuse, so we don't make room for child abuse or things like that because it's actually doing harm.
Speaker B:And that's not consistent with love.
Speaker B:Like I love, I love the love chapter in First Corinthians 13.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:Because I think it gives us a wonderful way of judging whether something is consistent with love.
Speaker B:But you know, two people who are cohabitating, I mean, if you can't point out to me how that's inconsistent with love, I'm just going to leave it to the Holy Spirit to work with it.
Speaker B:It, let's say it doesn't work for me.
Speaker B:I don't want to do that.
Speaker B:Okay, then that's your personal thing.
Speaker B:But let the Holy Spirit deal with them as he wills.
Speaker B:And, and, and other than that, let's just serve God the best we can.
Speaker A:Man.
Speaker A:Nuggets, nuggets.
Speaker A:One more question.
Speaker A:And that is, is we, we talked about Paul, we talked about purpose and plans.
Speaker A:How if something is bothering what, and they feel that one way is, is the correct way, what is the best way for a person to be able to, I don't know, I won't say, get through it, maybe change their mind.
Speaker A:But but, but what can a person do if they feel that they are in a disagreement about something?
Speaker B:Just to make sure I understand your question.
Speaker B:So what can a person do if they feel like they're in disagreement with someone else about something and they're trying to convince the other person that they're right or they're trying to let the other person leave them alone, basically let them live their life.
Speaker A:Like, like either or you, you know, it's kind of like.
Speaker A:Because we're always going to have these disagreements, you know, there will be other disagreements in the future.
Speaker A:I mean, it could be as simple as, you know, chicken or steak.
Speaker A:I mean.
Speaker B:No.
Speaker A:You know, so how can, like, what is, what are tips in order to be able to, to, to, to move amongst each other?
Speaker B:The first thing I would say is make room in your faith worldview that there is actually space for people who disagree with you, that your particular way of seeing the world and even understanding what God desires and, or declares or decrees or demands from us doesn't necessarily equal what other people may believe or think.
Speaker B:And that it's okay, you just be convinced in your own mind and you serve God as best you can.
Speaker B:God doesn't like gay marriage.
Speaker B:Okay, wonderful.
Speaker B:Don't get married to someone of the same sex.
Speaker B:You be convinced in your own mind and you do what you need to do to serve God as faithfully as you can.
Speaker B:But once you take what you believe and make it a law for somebody else.
Speaker B:Now we've got a problem because even in scripture he talks about even the elders in the church not lording over the people.
Speaker B:And so if the, if the leadership in the church isn't supposed to lord over other people in the church, then the church itself most certainly isn't supposed to lord its beliefs over the non Christian world.
Speaker B:And so we really have to get back to a.
Speaker B:I hate to kind of phrase it like this because it's so, I don't know, common vernacular, whatever the case is, but we have to get back to a live and let live mentality.
Speaker B:There's room in the world for you.
Speaker B:There's room in the church for somebody who disagrees with me because I don't have all the answers.
Speaker B:I disagree with the me of five years ago.
Speaker B:That's what we call growth.
Speaker B:And so if I'm going to disagree with myself and still don't delegitimize the fact that I still was saved five years ago, then why, why is it so hard to wrap my mind around the fact that I may disagree with somebody today?
Speaker B:And I could be wrong because I still have growing to do.
Speaker B:But even if I'm not, that there's somebody else who has a different perspective and they're still, it doesn't delegitimize their salvation.
Speaker B:Christ to him crucified.
Speaker B:After that, we're done.
Speaker B:Let's just have a conversation.
Speaker B:We can discuss it, we can debate it, but when we're done, we're going to shake hands, we're going to hug, we're going to greet each other with a holy kiss, and we're going to still believe that one another are still sincere believers.
Speaker B:Even though we landed someplace differently.
Speaker B:We just don't want to turn that in.
Speaker B:We just don't want to lord our beliefs over other people.
Speaker B:Our beliefs become a law unto ourselves, not for other people.
Speaker B:And I think that if we really become okay with that, religion doesn't help us learn how to be okay with that.
Speaker B:Because it's not easy to know that other people think other things.
Speaker B:But when you break free of religion, then you realize it's okay.
Speaker B:The world is still spinning, the sun is still rising.
Speaker B:It's okay.
Speaker B:And to me again, Jesus is the best example of that because he lived a life in conflict with people.
Speaker B:Not because he sought it out, but because they kept seeking him out.
Speaker B:But why?
Speaker B:Because he had a different perspective.
Speaker B:He had a different point of view.
Speaker B:Now, unfortunately, many of the religion, not all of them, but many of the religious leaders weren't willing to perceive the idea that perhaps he's actually given the perspective that I may want to listen to.
Speaker B:Nicodemus did, right?
Speaker B:And the nice did.
Speaker B:Some people did, but.
Speaker B:But others didn't.
Speaker B:But the people who were more open minded, the ones that the religious leaders rejected, the ones that the church said, quote unquote, the church didn't exist at the time, but the ones that the religious community said weren't good enough.
Speaker B:It's interesting to me that God finds more followers amongst the dejected and the rejected that he does amongst the religious leaders.
Speaker B:And there's something wrong with that because as leaders we should be showing people the way.
Speaker B:We should be showing them what to do.
Speaker B:Not what not to do, but part of that religious attitude that we so often adopt in leadership or just as Christians in general, shows people what not to do in their spiritual walk and what to do.
Speaker A:And that's that said, man, oh, that's a nugget.
Speaker B:All these nuggets, all these nuggets.
Speaker A:I'm gonna be rich by the end of the night.
Speaker B:Look, just send your 10 to my ministry.
Speaker B:That's all, that's, that's all I ask.
Speaker A:Oh man.
Speaker A:When he's, when you talked about Nicodemus, it reminded me of my pastor because he would nickname him Nick at night because he was scared.
Speaker A:That was his nickname.
Speaker A:He'd be like Nick at night.
Speaker A:And because Nicodemus is a really, a fascinating example of someone.
Speaker A:He was, he was intrigued, but scared.
Speaker A:And, and you knew why he was scared.
Speaker A:He had a way of life.
Speaker A:He was comfortable.
Speaker A:I mean, to be in his position was.
Speaker A:Oh my gosh, he was a celebrity, you know, to be in his position, he was very comfortable, had a comfortable life.
Speaker A:He had a comfortable position, he was respected.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:And so I could, I would have been Nick at night if I was him.
Speaker A:To be still hungry for that word and to learn more, but to be afraid of what to lose.
Speaker A:Because when you think about it, Jesus was radical.
Speaker B:Oh yeah.
Speaker A:I mean, when we talk about like political terms today, Jesus was probably the left leaning radical indeed.
Speaker A:Nobody, or I should say, I shouldn't say nobody.
Speaker A:But the powers of being did not they.
Speaker A:He was a threat.
Speaker A:He was very much a threat to their way of life.
Speaker B:Self preservation, yes, is a very powerful motivator.
Speaker B:And that's why Jesus said, the one who seeks to preserve his life will lose it, but the one who's willing to lose it for my sake, for the kingdom's sake, will find it.
Speaker B:Because when we're trying to save face, when we're trying to preserve our position, when, when we're trying to preserve people's per.
Speaker B:Perception of us, we won't have the courage to step out and actually do what's right, to stand up for what's right.
Speaker B:And so that was a challenge that Nicodemus found that, that he had.
Speaker B:That was a problem that Peter wound up having when he denied Christ.
Speaker B:You know, it's a very human thing.
Speaker B:So it's easy for us to read the text and turn our nose up at them, but the truth is it's a human thing because self preservation is a powerful motivator.
Speaker B:But at some point we have to ask ourselves, what am I willing to sell?
Speaker B:What am I willing to give in exchange for what I believe to be right?
Speaker B:I think about people who, so many people, even pastors, who themselves, even straight pastors who themselves affirm homosexuality but will never teach it because they're trying to preserve their ministries and trying to preserve their positions.
Speaker B:And the question becomes, at what point do you stop serving mammon?
Speaker B:Now of course, in this case, mammon means riches.
Speaker B:But it can.
Speaker B:It can really apply to anything that is contrary.
Speaker B:To what?
Speaker B:To truth.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:At some point we have to stop serving mammon, stop serving position, stop serving title, and start serving the truth.
Speaker B:Because we can't serve two masters.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:Oh my gosh.
Speaker B:And there is a price to pay.
Speaker B:I've paid it myself.
Speaker B:There is a price to pay, but we have to be willing to.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:Oh my goodness.
Speaker A:I wish we had more time.
Speaker A:My brain was just like, here we go again.
Speaker A:The universe is being made in my mind at one time.
Speaker A:Oh my goodness.
Speaker A:I thank you so much for joining me today.
Speaker A:I am so blessed in ways that I'm.
Speaker A:I, I don't even understand right now and I may not for a hot for a while because it's all like this is just going to be digesting for, for, for a good moment.
Speaker A:Thank you for being with me.
Speaker A:Rommel Parks Weekly.
Speaker A:I.
Speaker A:I hope we will see each other again.
Speaker A:Thank you so much.
Speaker B:I appreciate so greatly the opportunity and I'm glad to have, have dropped some nuggets.
Speaker B:I, I sometimes get myself into trouble.
Speaker B:So I'm glad to have been able to preach some good news today.
Speaker B:But thank you so much for the platform and for the opportunity.
Speaker B:I really do appreciate it.
Speaker A:Thank you.
